More evidence that an actual COVID infection gives a high level of ongoing immunity and a vaccine is not needed for those people.

by Tommy Monk Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

This is based on a new CDC report... Which isn't being talked about in any main stream media, surprise surprise...

https://youtu.be/25-iJKPA1CA

by Original Quill Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:06 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:1. The vaccines don't prevent people from getting covid.

True for usually around 2 - 5% of people taking it. Otherwise, not true.

tommy monk wrote:2. Not taking any chance, it is established fact. Plus having already had it and been fine, the bodies immune system will deal with any future infection.

Mutations change the virus. All vaccinations undergo adjustments to allow for mutations. If you avoid vaccines, you risk exposure due to mutation.

tommy monk wrote:3. Here in UK the figures are caveated by the statement "died within 28 days of a positive covid test"... Not that they died from covid... But they still go on the covid death tally regardless of whatever else they died of!

Perhaps for some lists, but not for the useful ones used by the New York Times, to which I refer. "Within 28 days" would be an association, not a "cause of death" - and a loose one, at that. International Classification of Disease (ICD) codes are [usually] used to record manner and cause of death in a systematic way that makes it easy to compile statistics and more feasible to compare events across jurisdictions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cause_of_death

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:28 pm

The UK figure you quoted is the se number here, but here, when quoted it also has to have the "died within 28 days of a positive test" statement attached to it.

It is well known here that a large proportion of those listed, did not die of covid, but of other causes, and just coincidentally had a recent covid infection.

by Ben Reilly Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:45 pm

I think there probably is something to the claim that some UK deaths recorded as Covid deaths were not directly caused by Covid. At the same time, if you look at the records of deaths during Covid compared to 2019, 2018, etc., it's undeniable that there have been a significantly higher number of deaths -- so something caused that to happen, and I use Occam's Razor.

There are also many reports that China (and Iran) vastly under-reported their Covid deaths, so even if some other countries over-reported, I think it at least balances out.

Even if the disease mainly kills the vulnerable, there are an awful lot of vulnerable people in the world, and we should do what we can to protect them.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 05, 2022 10:19 pm

I posted monthly death rates going back 5 years and only a couple of months looked a little bit higher than what is the usual sort of figures.

And we know vast majority of deaths were of over 75s, and who already had other serious health issues.

by eddie Sat Mar 05, 2022 10:28 pm

I’m kinda with you on this Tommy.

by Vintage Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:30 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

I posted monthly death rates going back 5 years and only a couple of months looked a little bit higher than what is the usual sort of figures.

And we know vast majority of deaths were of over 75s, and who already had other serious health issues.

Over 75's with serious health issues - oh well that's ok then.
Could it be people were dying of Covid or complications of Covid so other causes of death didn't get a look in?
Although I suppose if you are at risk of dying of something it doesn't really matter then.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:41 am

It's not a case of "oh that's alright then"... It's a case of putting things in perspective with facts!

by Original Quill Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:28 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

1. The vaccines don't prevent people from getting covid.

For about 95% they do. It's not perfect, but near perfect.

tommy monk wrote:2. Not taking any chance, it is established fact. Plus having already had it and been fine, the bodies immune system will deal with any future infection.

If you're not taking any chance, then get the vaccine. If you're one of the few who still get Covid - and it doesn't kill you - then rely on natural immunity.

tommy monk wrote:3. Here in UK the figures are caveated by the statement "died within 28 days of a positive covid test"... Not that they died from covid... But they still go on the covid death tally regardless of whatever else they died of!

Great. Then the the figures are either not dependable, or the statement is not a complete definition of all the values they are keeping. If the only qualification for inclusion in UK tallies is the individual "died within 28 days of a positive covid test", that is assocation, not causation. If the UK is not keeping tallies beyond association, then by definition the UK is simply not keeping records of cause of death.

However, I find it highly doubtful that the UK is not keeping records on cause of death.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:29 am

www.gov.uk › government › publications
3 days ago · At the time of this report, over 161,104 people across the UK have died within 28 days of a positive test for coronavirus (COVID-19).

And...

https://www.health.org.uk/publications/long-reads/what-has-happened-to-non-covid-mortality-during-the-pandemic

by Ben Reilly Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:46 pm

Found a study that sort of makes my point for me. It says nearly one in four people in the UK has at least one underlying health issue, including more than 8 percent of school-age kids, nearly one in 5 working-age adults, and more than 65 percent of over-70s.

That's nearly 17 million people whose concerns would be completely ignored under a policy of letting Covid run its course naturally -- the do-nothing approach.

by Original Quill Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:45 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Found a study that sort of makes my point for me. It says nearly one in four people in the UK has at least one underlying health issue, including more than 8 percent of school-age kids, nearly one in 5 working-age adults, and more than 65 percent of over-70s.

That's nearly 17 million people whose concerns would be completely ignored under a policy of letting Covid run its course naturally -- the do-nothing approach.

Or, to put it in the context of the metaphor I've been using, most people falling off the cliff die from the bump at the bottom.

I've run across this factoid as well. Most cases do have accompanying potential comorbidities. Note that I emphasized it (italics) in the post about breast cancer (75%) on the previous page.

by Syl Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:58 pm

My OH has type 2 diabetes, he has lived with it for years, no other health problems at all.
But according to the likes of Tommy, if he caught Covid and died, statistically, it wouldn't really be Covid that killed him, but the fact that he already have a condition, just like 25% of the UK population.

Just like the FOUR people I know of, who caught Covid and died pre vaccination programme.
No doubt, they would, all four still be alive now, because in spite of the age related or underlying health issues they had, they would probably have lived for many years had they not caught Covid.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:14 pm

Covid is not going away... And we can't all hide away indoors for the rest of our lives... So I don't know what you want me to say...?

by Original Quill Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:20 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Covid is not going away... And we can't all hide away indoors for the rest of our lives... So I don't know what you want me to say...?

That's why it's necessary to emphasize a vaccine program.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:27 pm

Vaccine the vulnerable groups... Not those who have already had the virus and not at risk from it!!!

The vaccines don't stop you getting it anyway!!!

by Original Quill Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

1. The vaccines don't prevent people from getting covid.

Yes they do...in 95% of the cases.

tommy monk wrote:2. Not taking any chance, it is established fact. Plus having already had it and been fine, the bodies immune system will deal with any future infection.

If you hadn't had it, you would start with a vaccine. Natural immunity is a fine back-up, but it's not wise to begin with it. Vaccinate before you get the infection.

tommy monk wrote:3. Here in UK the figures are caveated by the statement "died within 28 days of a positive covid test"... Not that they died from covid... But they still go on the covid death tally regardless of whatever else they died of!

I really don't care. Rolling Eyes

If the UK doesn't keep records on cause of death, ee's no' my problem, mon. I live in the US.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:03 pm

You quoted the 161,000 UK covid figure... I am just informing you of the fact that a large number of that didn't die of covid but just happened to have had a positive result for covid within 28 days of which they died of something else.

by Syl Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:30 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

You quoted the 161,000 UK covid figure... I am just informing you of the fact that a large number of that didn't die of covid but just happened to have had a positive result for covid within 28 days of which they died of something else.

Taken from the ONS for England and Wales..

"When a person dies, in most cases a doctor writes a medical certificate of cause of death (MCCD) which is then recorded in the death registration (at a local authority registration office). The details are printed out as the official 'death certificate' for the next of kin. The same information is sent electronically from the registration office to ONS for us to produce statistics about causes of death.

For statistical purposes one of the health conditions on the certificate is chosen as the 'underlying cause of death'. The underlying cause of death is defined as the health condition or event that started the train of events leading to death and is worked out according to rules from the World Health Organisation (WHO).
COVID-19 is the underlying cause of death in around 92% of deaths where it was mentioned on the death certificate."

by Vintage Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:05 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Vaccine the vulnerable groups... Not those who have already had the virus and not at risk from it!!!

The vaccines don't stop you getting it anyway!!!

So how do you recognise all the people who arte vulnerable, some underlying health issues are just that until something happens to bring them to the fore.

by Tommy Monk Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:53 am

Thought that was fairly obvious who the most vulnerable groups are...

by Ben Reilly Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:04 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Covid is not going away... And we can't all hide away indoors for the rest of our lives... So I don't know what you want me to say...?

Covid will evolve into a less-deadly form, following the route of Spanish Flu, which killed tens of millions of people 100 years ago and still survives today as an ordinary strain of flu. In fact, vaccination programmes can help this process along, as it puts artificial pressure on the virus to adapt.

Of course, the virus is also pressuring human beings to adapt, and it's fair to say we'll probably see more people in future generations with more natural resistance to Covid.

But that's then, and in the present moment, we should be doing whatever we can reasonably do to limit the number of Covid deaths.

by Tommy Monk Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:20 pm

Ben wrote:
Covid will evolve into a less-deadly form, following the route of Spanish Flu...

Which I've already said countless times!

And I'm all in favour of vaccinating the vulnerable groups... Although these vaccines don't stop people getting covid, and people can still get seriously ill and even die from it after having had these vaccines... But the overwhelming vast majority have either already had the actual virus or can quite safely contract the virus with only having mild symptoms, and therefore will already have a natural immune system response, which offers an extremely high level of future protection!

Try reading the op title and watching the video

by Original Quill Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:53 pm

Ben wrote:Of course, the virus is also pressuring human beings to adapt, and it's fair to say we'll probably see more people in future generations with more natural resistance to Covid.

Of course, one of the ways that humans adapt is in the lab. We use our intelligence to study and understand. Eventually, we create vaccines. Vaccines work. Hence, we are adapting.

The anti-vaxxers are counter-productive to human adaptation. That is what folks mean when they say the anti-vaxxers are anti-science. They reject on the basis of myth or rumor. In a sense, they are a return to arbitrary religion and fable.

by Vintage Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:24 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Thought that was fairly obvious who the most vulnerable groups are...

Not always, how many young people keel over with heart attacks or those mysterious electrical malfunctions of the heart, young people also have unexpected strokes and a host of other medical problems lurking until something triggers it, like an infection.

by Ben Reilly Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:28 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Ben wrote:
Covid will evolve into a less-deadly form, following the route of Spanish Flu...

Which I've already said countless times!

And I'm all in favour of vaccinating the vulnerable groups... Although these vaccines don't stop people getting covid, and people can still get seriously ill and even die from it after having had these vaccines... But the overwhelming vast majority have either already had the actual virus or can quite safely contract the virus with only having mild symptoms, and therefore will already have a natural immune system response, which offers an extremely high level of future protection!

Try reading the op title and watching the video

The vaccines prevent Covid for 95 percent of people. And there have been plenty of people who've gotten the virus, overcome it, and a few months later have little to no natural immunity to it left -- like Tom Hanks!

by Ben Reilly Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:36 am

All this talk about how it's "only" over-60s leaves out one glaring fact: Those who are currently under 60 will someday be over 60!

I've only got 13 years to go; eddie's lucky in that she's got about 37 more years before she hits 60, but we're both definitely planning on being 60 (and 70, etc.) in future.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could eradicate the virus before today's under-60s turn into over-60s?

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:12 pm

Vintage wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Thought that was fairly obvious who the most vulnerable groups are...

Not always, how many young people keel over with heart attacks or those mysterious electrical malfunctions of the heart, young people also have unexpected strokes and a host of other medical problems lurking until something triggers it, like an infection.

That has always happened... Nothing new... But incredibly rare...

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:15 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Which I've already said countless times!

And I'm all in favour of vaccinating the vulnerable groups... Although these vaccines don't stop people getting covid, and people can still get seriously ill and even die from it after having had these vaccines... But the overwhelming vast majority have either already had the actual virus or can quite safely contract the virus with only having mild symptoms, and therefore will already have a natural immune system response, which offers an extremely high level of future protection!

Try reading the op title and watching the video

The vaccines prevent Covid for 95 percent of people. And there have been plenty of people who've gotten the virus, overcome it, and a few months later have little to no natural immunity to it left -- like Tom Hanks!

Vaccines don't prevent covid in 95% of people

And if you've already had the actual virus, and had overcome it easily with your immune system doing the job, like overwhelming vast majority of people, then you needn't worry about getting it again as your immune system will see it off again!

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:19 pm

The average age of those who died from covid here in UK is 82...

Which means most are over 80!

By the time the younger lot have got to 70-80, you will likely to have already had it enough times to be unscathed by any future infection.

Plus a virus becomes less potent over time too!.

It is already much like a cold for overwhelming vast majority of people!

by Original Quill Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:39 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

The vaccines prevent Covid for 95 percent of people. And there have been plenty of people who've gotten the virus, overcome it, and a few months later have little to no natural immunity to it left -- like Tom Hanks!

Vaccines don't prevent covid in 95% of people

Yes, the Covid vaccine works successfully in 95% of the cases.

Tommy Monk wrote:And if you've already had the actual virus, and had overcome it easily with your immune system doing the job, like overwhelming vast majority of people, then you needn't worry about getting it again as your immune system will see it off again!

We've known for some time that natural immunity works. However, the virus still hits hard: 958,621 dead in the US; 162,359 in the UK. When a loss is this heavy, we look for ways to avoid it. We have found it in a vaccine that works in 95% of cases.

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:42 pm

No it doesn't!!!

by Original Quill Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:43 pm

Yes, it does.

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:08 pm

Oh no it doesn't!

by Original Quill Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:46 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Oh no it doesn't!

As Joseph Goebbels said: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as [the liar] can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie...for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie..."

The lies and misperceptions about vaccines and Covid 19 have already been unveiled. The efficacy of a Covid vaccine varies with the manufacturer, but they all seem to center around the 95% effective - 05% ineffective mark, given a common, average recipient. The CDC has stated:

CDC wrote:All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States are effective at preventing COVID-19. Getting sick with COVID-19 can offer some protection from future illness, sometimes called “natural immunity,” but the level of protection people get from having COVID-19 may vary depending on how mild or severe their illness was, the time since their infection, and their age.

Getting a COVID-19 vaccination is also a safer way to build protection than getting sick with COVID-19. COVID-19 vaccination helps protect you by creating an antibody response without you having to experience sickness. Getting vaccinated yourself may also protect people around you, particularly people at increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19. Getting sick with COVID-19 can cause severe illness or death, and we can’t reliably predict who will have mild or severe illness. If you get sick, you can spread COVID-19 to others.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/facts.html

by Tommy Monk Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:49 am

Try checking out the OP which is talking about a most recent CDC report... If you Ike the CDC so much...

by Original Quill Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:12 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Try checking out the OP which is talking about a most recent CDC report... If you Ike the CDC so much...

The CDC’s ‘Myth/Fact’ exposure has already answered that:

Center for Disease Control wrote:MYTH: The natural immunity I get from being sick with COVID-19 is better than the immunity I get from COVID-19 vaccination.

FACT: Getting a COVID-19 vaccination is a safer and more dependable way to build immunity to COVID-19 than getting sick with COVID-19.

COVID-19 vaccination causes a more predictable immune response than infection with the virus that causes COVID-19. Getting a COVID-19 vaccine gives most people a high level of protection against COVID-19 and can provide added protection for people who already had COVID-19. One study showed that, for people who already had COVID-19, those who do not get vaccinated after their recovery are more than 2 times as likely to get COVID-19 again than those who get fully vaccinated after their recovery.

All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States are effective at preventing COVID-19. Getting sick with COVID-19 can offer some protection from future illness, sometimes called “natural immunity,” but the level of protection people get from having COVID-19 may vary depending on how mild or severe their illness was, the time since their infection, and their age.

Getting a COVID-19 vaccination is also a safer way to build protection than getting sick with COVID-19. COVID-19 vaccination helps protect you by creating an antibody response without you having to experience sickness. Getting vaccinated yourself may also protect people around you, particularly people at increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19. Getting sick with COVID-19 can cause severe illness or death, and we can’t reliably predict who will have mild or severe illness. If you get sick, you can spread COVID-19 to others. You can also continue to have long-term health issues after COVID-19 infection.

Getting sick = risking death and spread to others. Getting vaccinated = risking a 5% chance of getting Covid, while you have a 95% chance of avoiding it altogether.

Nuff said.

by Tommy Monk Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:56 pm

That is because the perceived risk of getting seriously ill or dying is higher from an actual COVID infection than from a vaccine ..

But huge number of people already had the actual virus and recovered before having access to any vaccine .. so therefore didn't need any vaccine!!!

Why are you so unable to accept this simple fact!!!???

by Original Quill Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:46 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

1. The vaccines don't prevent people from getting covid.

It's not absolute. But they do prevent people getting Covid...in about 95% of the vaccinated individuals.

Tommy Monk wrote:2. Not taking any chance, it is established fact. Plus having already had it and been fine, the bodies immune system will deal with any future infection.

I think you missed the point. With a vaccine one has a 95% chance of missing the problem altogether.

Without the vaccine, the chances are nearly 100% that the exposed person will be infected, and a sizable number of those will die (so far, 959,000 in US; 162.300 in UK). And that's not even mentioning the spread factor, which one will give out to family and love ones - the people most dear in one's life.

The chances are vastly better with the vaccine.

by Original Quill Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:15 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:That is because the perceived risk of getting seriously ill or dying is higher from an actual COVID infection than from a vaccine ..

But huge number of people already had the actual virus and recovered before having access to any vaccine .. so therefore didn't need any vaccine!!!

Why are you so unable to accept this simple fact!!!???

Because it's of no consequence. The worst one can do, if one has had Covid, is achieve redundant immunity via a vaccination. You have natural immunity, and immunity from the vaccine.

For those who have not had it, or for those who don't know if they've had it, the vaccination gives certainty and, potentially, avoids spread. You cannot have too much protection.

by Tommy Monk Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:49 am

The figures and % you quote are simply not true!

And your arguments are weak at best and completely spurious at worst!

Please start to see sense and reason and logic.

by Original Quill Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:24 am

Tommy Monk wrote:The figures and % you quote are simply not true!

And your arguments are weak at best and completely spurious at worst!

Please start to see sense and reason and logic.

Denial is a river in east Africa. It's not a rational argument without proof. You offer none! Laughing

by Tommy Monk Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:36 pm

Ok Mr twisty...

by Original Quill Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:12 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Ok Mr twisty...

I appreciate your candor in the matter.

Now, the proper way to approach Covid is to go through the 3-dose vaccination regime as soon as possible. If anyone falls into the 5% of the vaccinated population who nonetheless get Covid - and survives - while they have my sympathies, they will have received natural immunity in addition to the antibodies of the vaccination.

That's a good thing - tho' not a recommended therapy before-the-fact, because of the high chance of death.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:29 pm

You obviously haven't seen the op vid, or seen the actual CDC report that it is based on.

by Original Quill Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:You obviously haven't seen the op vid, or seen the actual CDC report that it is based on.

Forget about the OP vid. All it says is that there is evidence that natural immunity produces stronger antibodies than a vaccination. You and the idiot making the video assume they are competing paths to immunity. But they are not in competition.

When both the vaccination and natural immunity are available, why not rely on both? Go with the vaccination before getting Covid, and – god forbid - should you still get Covid, and survive, your body will presumably produce its own, presumably more effective antibodies. The vaccination will protect most people, and should they yet get Covid and survive, they will have natural immunity to rely upon.

Now you’ve got an effective plan. Go with it.

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