The madness and malice of Tier 4

So Christmas is cancelled, effectively, for about a third of the entire UK population. My mother-in-law is freaked out and lost her cool for probably the first time I've ever seen tonight, in a phone chat with my wife.

Yes, this new Southeastern strain of Covid is scary, but only because it's more easily transmitted, not because it's more deadly, or because there's any evidence that we won't be able to vaccinate against it. It scares me too, but that's because it apparently infected a number of kids at my stepdaughter's school.

(Remember when eddie and I said we were reluctant to send her back to school, because of the possibility of a mutant strain that infected kids? Remember us being told we were ruled by fear and were being a pair of sillies? Not that being right gives me any pleasure, in this case.)

But eddie's workplace is still open! She can't mix with her mother and brother for Christmas, but she can mix with a dozen co-workers and hundreds of customers every day. The former is apparently too dangerous, but the latter is apparently much safer.

That's plainly crazy. The science of disease transmission has told us well before the pandemic that you're far less likely to be infected by being exposed to two people than to two hundred people. So what are we to make of this?

Simply that the UK government has decided that some lives don't matter as much as others; that some lives are worth gambling with, in the hope that this pandemic won't bring the economy to its knees. Do your part, earn money for the corporate titans, who will then duly pay their taxes, and hopefully the rich can stay rich without losing too many worker bees.

Those who lose their lives in this noble battle to prop up the economy will undoubtedly be feted as heroes, in a brief, thoughtless spray of treacly words from our messy-headed Prime Minister in a news conference.

Those who can understand know the message that has been communicated to us by the elite: We're not bothered enough to keep you alive at the expense of our cash cow -- so be careful, but die, if it comes to that.

It is fucking madness. They’re keeping certain places open - namely the huge company I work for - because they make so much profit for the government.

The lockdowns and tier system are shite. In the last “lockdown” every shop in our high street was open except charity shops and travel agents. Even the shop ‘Superdrug’ was open because they sell pain medication...well let me tell you, most of that shop is cosmetics, hair stuff like dye and shampoo and bath products! WTF? Even the dry cleaners was open! Is that an essential service?

I think this is a fucking shambles. I am seriously thinking of never voting again because “people in power” are just fucking idiots.

I can’t see my family but I can see hundreds of people in the public because they’re “hungry”.

Will you be in Tier 4 as from tomorrow Eddie?

It sounds like a mix up of Tier 3 and lockdown.....we have been in one or the other since the summer, even though our rates have been going down for a few weeks. Sometimes it seems the rules make no sense, they are certainly not consistant.

Boris's big mistake was promising everyone a totally irresponsible 5 day amnesty over Christmas.
People made plans, now they all have to be cancelled at the last minute.

Whereas, imo, this government handled things well at the beginning of the pandemic, they seem to be running round like headless chickens now.

Yes, we are in Tier 4 from tomorrow....except it’s just utter rubbish.
I think we should just go into another proper lockdown. End of. All this Tier bollocks is just not working.

eddie wrote:Yes, we are in Tier 4 from tomorrow....except it’s just utter rubbish.
I think we should just go into another proper lockdown. End of. All this Tier bollocks is just not working.

I agree. Tiering  may work temporarily, but as soon as they end, infections start to rise again.....and as soon as they drop in one part of the country, they rise in another.

The only way out of this i can see, is when enough people have been vacinated as to stop the spread, till then, I honestly think people either have to mix as little as possible if they can, or if they cant, hope they wont be badly affected if they are unlucky enough to catch it.

eddie wrote:Yes, we are in Tier 4 from tomorrow....except it’s just utter rubbish.
I think we should just go into another proper lockdown. End of. All this Tier bollocks is just not working.

There is no end until you kill it. There are just waves after each lock down.

Protect the high risk groups and let everyone else carry on as normal... So far the 'cure' is killing us all off!

Tommy Monk wrote:


Protect the high risk groups and let everyone else carry on as normal... So far the 'cure' is killing us all off!

Didn't Sweden follow that route, and though it seemed to work at first, they are now ending up with more infections and deaths than some of their neighbours that followed lockdowns similar to the way the UK and most other 
Countries  have handled the pandemic.

Syl wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

Protect the high risk groups and let everyone else carry on as normal... So far the 'cure' is killing us all off!

Didn't Sweden follow that route, and though it seemed to work at first, they are now ending up with more infections and deaths than some of their neighbours that followed lockdowns similar to the way the UK and most other 
Countries  have handled the pandemic.

Up until we formulated the vaccine, Trump was following the path of let's all get it, as well. We have 304,000 dead (and climbing) to show for it.

The Trump Genocide.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:
Didn't Sweden follow that route, and though it seemed to work at first, they are now ending up with more infections and deaths than some of their neighbours that followed lockdowns similar to the way the UK and most other 
Countries  have handled the pandemic.

Up until we formulated the vaccine, Trump was following the path of let's all get it, as well.  We have 304,000 dead (and climbing) to show for it.

The Trump Genocide.

But to be fair, we didn't go down that route and our death rate is possibly higher than yours % wise.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Up until we formulated the vaccine, Trump was following the path of let's all get it, as well.  We have 304,000 dead (and climbing) to show for it.

The Trump Genocide.

But to be fair, we didn't go down that route and our death rate is possibly higher than yours % wise.

In terms of death rate, the UK is 11, the US is 12 and Sweden is 24.

Syl wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


Protect the high risk groups and let everyone else carry on as normal... So far the 'cure' is killing us all off!

Didn't Sweden follow that route, and though it seemed to work at first, they are now ending up with more infections and deaths than some of their neighbours that followed lockdowns similar to the way the UK and most other 
Countries  have handled the pandemic.

Sweden didn't protect their elderly. That was their huge mistake.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:
But to be fair, we didn't go down that route and our death rate is possibly higher than yours % wise.

In terms of death rate, the UK is 11, the US is 12 and Sweden is 24.  

Not much difference % wise between your country and mine, though we have had different advice from very different leaders.

Sweden has higher death rates than it's neighbours, I was comparing like with like.
They didn't protect the elderly, neither did many other countries, including the uk.


"Sweden has suffered many times more deaths per capita than its Nordic neighbours, although fewer than some European countries that opted for lockdowns."


https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-commission/sweden-failed-to-protect-elderly-in-covid-pandemic-commission-finds-idUKKBN28P1PP

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

In terms of death rate, the UK is 11, the US is 12 and Sweden is 24.  

Not much difference % wise between your country and mine, though we have had different advice from very different leaders.

Sweden has higher death rates than it's neighbours, I was comparing like with like.
They didn't protect the elderly, neither did many other countries, including the uk.


"Sweden has suffered many times more deaths per capita than its Nordic neighbours, although fewer than some European countries that opted for lockdowns."


https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-commission/sweden-failed-to-protect-elderly-in-covid-pandemic-commission-finds-idUKKBN28P1PP

Yup. Then there is Belgium.

Were they instructed to lick each other on the face?

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Up until we formulated the vaccine, Trump was following the path of let's all get it, as well. We have 304,000 dead (and climbing) to show for it.

The Trump Genocide.

But to be fair, we didn't go down that route and our death rate is possibly higher than yours % wise.

But the US also has much more physical terrain to cover. "Distancing' is the physical parameter that prevents the spread of this virus. So, we overcame numbers and the proximity, thus we possibly cubed the challenge that the UK faced, and came through in the same time.

Plus, we have the anecdotal narrative that Trump was following. By refusing to distance, wear masks and holding huge rallies, he was openly stating: I invite this virus into our circle, and challenge it to infect us. He was (in the words of his close confidants) openly, intentionally trying to infect the population in his belief in 'herd immunity'—the dead be damned.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:
Not much difference % wise between your country and mine, though we have had different advice from very different leaders.

Sweden has higher death rates than it's neighbours, I was comparing like with like.
They didn't protect the elderly, neither did many other countries, including the uk.


[size=44]"Sweden has suffered many times more deaths per capita than its Nordic neighbours, although fewer than some European countries that opted for lockdowns."[/size]


https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-commission/sweden-failed-to-protect-elderly-in-covid-pandemic-commission-finds-idUKKBN28P1PP

Yup.  Then there is Belgium.  

Were they instructed to lick each other on the face?  

I dont know...were they?

The way this virus seems to be unstoppable, no matter how any country has tried to handle it, it's hard to say who got it right.

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Yup.  Then there is Belgium.  

Were they instructed to lick each other on the face?  

I dont know...were they?

The way this virus seems to be unstoppable, no matter how any country has tried to handle it, it's hard to say who got it right.

Based on their death figures, maybe they were.

They did far worse than the UK or US.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:
I dont know...were they?

The way this virus seems to be unstoppable, no matter how any country has tried to handle it, it's hard to say who got it right.

Based on their death figures, maybe they were.  

They did far worse than the UK or US.  

There has to be a reason why some places of similar conditions to their neighbours fare better or worse.
Lifestyle, the age of the population, the weight of them....because weight does seem to figure, as does ethnicity, blacks and Asians have a higher death rate of Covid here....so is it in the genes or the lifestyle?

I'm sure all this has been studied throughout the globe in depth, but it seems the virus is always one step ahead of the scientists, at least till the vaccination is doled out globally, and we can all pray it won't mutate so drastically we are all back to square one.

On yet another depressing note....as the UK is once more ringing the leper bell, goods are not allowed out or in at present, which obviously brings out the panic buyer gene in some....empty shelves in supermarkets are already happening according to the news.

Makes me glad I bought my sprouts and mince pies early, they may be a bit past their best on Friday but at least we will have some.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:
I dont know...were they?

The way this virus seems to be unstoppable, no matter how any country has tried to handle it, it's hard to say who got it right.

Based on their death figures, maybe they were.  

They did far worse than the UK or US.  

There has to be a reason why some places of similar conditions to their neighbours fare better or worse.
Lifestyle, the age of the population, the weight of them....because weight does seem to figure, as does ethnicity, blacks and Asians have a higher death rate of Covid here....so is it in the genes or the lifestyle?

I'm sure all this has been studied throughout the globe in depth, but it seems the virus is always one step ahead of the scientists, at least till the vaccination is doled out globally, and we can all pray it won't mutate so drastically we are all back to square one.

On yet another depressing note....as the UK is once more ringing the leper bell,  some goods are not allowed out or in at present, which obviously brings out the panic buyer gene in some....empty shelves in supermarkets are already happening according to the news.

Makes me glad I bought my sprouts and mince pies early, they may be a bit past their best on Friday but at least we will have some.

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Based on their death figures, maybe they were.  

They did far worse than the UK or US.  

There has to be a reason why some places of similar conditions to their neighbours fare better or worse.
Lifestyle, the age of the population, the weight of them....because weight does seem to figure, as does ethnicity, blacks and Asians have a higher death rate of Covid here....so is it in the genes or the lifestyle?

I'm sure all this has been studied throughout the globe in depth, but it seems the virus is always one step ahead of the scientists, at least till the vaccination is doled out globally, and we can all pray it won't mutate so drastically we are all back to square one.

On yet another depressing note....as the UK is once more ringing the leper bell,  goods are not allowed out or in at present, which obviously brings out the panic buyer gene in some....empty shelves in supermarkets are already happening according to the news.

Makes me glad I bought my sprouts and mince pies early, they may be a bit past their best on Friday but at least we will have some.

Yeah, there are things well beyond the control of politicians that have a major impact. Yet people politicize everything and give politicians credit or blame for things that they likely had little control over.

I guess that's nothing new.

On a slightly more optimistic note, just been to the shops and the only empty shelves I saw were.....drum roll......toilet paper.

What is it about loo paper that seems to be the first thing people panic buy?
I wouldn't mind, but we have factories that make millions of rolls of the stuff daily right here in the UK.

Syl wrote:On a slightly more optimistic note, just been to the shops and the only empty shelves I saw were.....drum roll......toilet paper.

What is it about loo paper that seems to be the first thing people panic buy?
I wouldn't mind, but we have factories that make millions of rolls of the stuff daily right here in the UK.

Part of it is a change in demand. Commercial toilet paper comes in bigger rolls and TP manufacturers make it weeks if not months in advance. When a country does a shutdown of businesses people take a lot more dumps at home, and far fewer out and about like at work.

Therefore, people use more TP at home during a shutdown which creates small shortages. The small shortages lead to panic buying and hoarding.

Or....people panic that they won't have enough loo roll, get upset, and need the loo more often.

It's a vicious circle.

Syl wrote:Or....people panic that they won't have enough loo roll, get upset, and need the loo more often.

It's a vicious circle.

That's the second part of my post. Isolated shortages cause panic leading to widespread shortages.

The same thing happens here with gasoline prior to a big storm. A lot of folks fill up and people either see lines or a station or two out of gas. They panic and they fill up.

During Hurricane Harvey we had gas lines that ran the pumps dry causing more panic. And we are 200 miles from the coast. Of course it was exasperated by a drop in supply as our refineries are located on the coast too.

Don't understand why freight is being held up by France, ordinary travellers ok. Its not like this new strain hasn't been found on the continent, The Netherlands have for one and scientists reckon it has to be in others Germany for one.

Vintage wrote:Don't understand why freight is being held up by France, ordinary travellers ok. Its not like this new strain hasn't been found on the continent, The Netherlands have for one and scientists reckon it has to be in others Germany for one.

Brexit could have something to do with it, not that anyone will admit to that.

Shortage of Loo Paper doesn't bother me, with the Morphine I'm on, I've not been for a Week !!

nicko wrote: Shortage of Loo Paper doesn't bother me, with the Morphine I'm on, I've not been for a Week !!

Every cloud Nicko.


Seriously, I hope you are managing as best you can, that your Christmas is as good as it can be, and know that you have people in this world who love you and a family on here that care a lot about you. x

nicko wrote: Shortage of Loo Paper doesn't bother me, with the Morphine I'm on, I've not been for a Week !!

I love you, Nicko xx

Syl wrote:

Vintage wrote:Don't understand why freight is being held up by France, ordinary travellers ok. Its not like this new strain hasn't been found on the continent, The Netherlands have for one and scientists reckon it has to be in others Germany for one.

Brexit could have something to do with it, not that anyone will admit to that.

The only thing it might have to do with Brexit is vindictiveness because we are leaving the EU.


But, currently we are still in the EU and following all the same rules and regulations as usual... And the channel crossings close anyway for a number of reasons throughout the average year anyway!


And don't forget, there will be a backlog of lorries and cars in France too... all just as unhappy with the French govt as those stuck in Dover.


Also... don't be fooled into thinking that everyone in France is happy being in the EU cos they are not!


Macron is on record saying that he would not give the French people a referendum on leaving the EU or not because they would probably vote to leave!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:And don't forget, there will be a backlog of lorries and cars in France too... all just as unhappy with the French govt as those stuck in Dover.

Short-sighted thinking.  The French lorries can be redirected to Belgium, Italy and Spain...thence to the rest of Europe.  But where are the British lorries going to go?

This is the same reasoning you were warned about back when it mattered.

What?

Let me tell everyone what Tier 4 looks like where I live.

The dry cleaners is still open. The shop selling blinds and sliding doors, is open. Every clothes shop is open for click and collect. The shop selling sausages rolls, pies and cakes, is open. McDonald’s is open for takeaways and drive through food. All the kebab shops and Subway food shops are open.

Only charity shops, pubs, some restaurants and hairdressers are closed.

So not really any different to any other tier.

It’s just absolute rubbish. The government are doing rubbish.

Closed pubs I can understand.  Drunks get into singing and hollering and such, which enhances spread.  Restaurants are unnecessary...the dining room table at home will do.  As far as hairdressers, buy an electric clipper and do it yourself.

Grocery stores are still open here, and that's good.  Safeway has baked goods, prepared foods and all you need to feed yourself and the family.  Some dry goods are essential.  It works.

The virus that has killed over 1 million people is a hoax, no worse than a cold, and no need for a vaccine.
Tommy said so, it must be true.

Original Quill wrote:Closed pubs I can understand.  Drunks get into singing and hollering and such, which enhances spread.  Restaurants are unnecessary...the dining room table at home will do.  As far as hairdressers, buy an electric clipper and do it yourself.

Grocery stores are still open here, and that's good.  Safeway has baked goods, prepared foods and all you need to feed yourself and the family.  Some dry goods are essential.  It works.

Is this what your Thai servant told you as sent her about for your food?

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Closed pubs I can understand.  Drunks get into singing and hollering and such, which enhances spread.  Restaurants are unnecessary...the dining room table at home will do.  As far as hairdressers, buy an electric clipper and do it yourself.

Grocery stores are still open here, and that's good.  Safeway has baked goods, prepared foods and all you need to feed yourself and the family.  Some dry goods are essential.  It works.

Is this what your Thai servant told you as sent her about for your food?

Actually, she said 'thank you', as I gave her a handsome Christmas bonus.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Is this what your Thai servant told you as sent her about for your food?

Actually, she said 'thank you', as I gave her a handsome Christmas bonus.  

Shes lucky to have such a benevolent master.

Andy wrote:The virus that has killed over 1 million people is a hoax, no worse than a cold, and no need for a vaccine.
Tommy said so, it must be true.

Again, Andy, are you just entering threads to state how stupid you think someone is?

eddie wrote:

Andy wrote:The virus that has killed over 1 million people is a hoax, no worse than a cold, and no need for a vaccine.
Tommy said so, it must be true.

Again, Andy, are you just entering threads to state how stupid you think someone is?

Well, Andy is getting to the point. Tom appears to hold these beliefs, and can't account for the rise in the volume of deaths. No knock on tom, but it's a good question to put to his thesis.

Sometimes it's good to rise to the surface, just to get your bearings.

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:

Andy wrote:The virus that has killed over 1 million people is a hoax, no worse than a cold, and no need for a vaccine.
Tommy said so, it must be true.

Again, Andy, are you just entering threads to state how stupid you think someone is?

Well, Andy is getting to the point.  Tom appears to hold these beliefs, and can't account for the rise in the volume of deaths.  No knock on tom, but it's a good question to put to his thesis.

Sometimes it's good to rise to the surface, just to get your bearings.  

Hmmmm, I find that sarcasm didn’t work well if you want to have a true discussion.

eddie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Well, Andy is getting to the point.  Tom appears to hold these beliefs, and can't account for the rise in the volume of deaths.  No knock on tom, but it's a good question to put to his thesis.

Sometimes it's good to rise to the surface, just to get your bearings.  

Hmmmm, I find that sarcasm didn’t work well if you want to have a true discussion.

But...disregard the sarcasm, and focus on the analysis. We've all been down in the details of the issue. Andy has come along and directly asked the pointed question. Gd on him.