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LESSON FOR STARMER: BIDEN WON BY REJECTING LEFT’S AGENDA

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Post by Didgee on Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:39 pm

As the dust settles on the US campaign, inevitably analysis on this side of the pond turns to what implications it has for the next British election. Putting aside the non-directly transposable party systems, one lesson can be drawn for the Labour Party. Ignore the noisy TrotsApp faction’s calls for reconciliation. Biden won by rejecting the socialists…

Yesterday a former Clinton campaign organiser and now political strategist ran a fascinating focus group to understand swing voters in the US election. The group comprised of swing voters who flipped their vote in the last two weeks of the election. It’s a good place to start to understand how despite a disastrous pandemic, Democrats failed to pick up crucial Senate seats, went backwards in the House, and came far closer to losing the Presidential race than they had thought…

Key takeaways include:


  • 70% said they think Biden “mostly disagrees” with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

  • The group agreed with the sentiment that “defund the police” is “crazier than anything Trump has ever said.

  • When the interviewer tried to say “defund the police” doesn’t mean “defund the police”, the group shot back with “Don’t try and tell word don’t mean what they say”.

  • There was an attitude that whilst it is bad Trump is not yet conceding, “Democrats wouldn’t have accepted Trump” if he had won either.

  • Every member of the focus group believed Biden will be inaugurated and the transition of power will be peaceful.

  • The group really didn’t like celebrities telling them how to vote.



If Biden had been able to win over the Trump supporters in this group, perhaps the result would have been more conclusive on the night. Perhaps House seats wouldn’t have been lost. Perhaps the Democrats would have won the Senate.

Biden, who was seen to mostly disagree with the likes of AOC, won in districts where down-ballot Democrats lost. The takeaway chimes with Abigail Spanberger – a Democrat who won her marginal House seat off Republican Dave Brat in 2018 has been saying. In the Democratic caucus postmortem call she ripped into the left, saying “We lost races we shouldn’t have lost.” “Defund the police almost cost me my race because of an attack ad.” “Don’t say socialism ever again.”  Lessons Sir Keir could do with taking on. Today ComRes has Labour down 4% behind the Tories…

https://order-order.com/2020/11/11/lesson-for-starmer-biden-won-by-rejecting-lefts-agenda/

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:16 pm

Nice website to pull some impatiality from.

Didn't AOC and the fab four storm to reelection again? Isn't Biden also now promoting a green new deal?

The Dems are never going to appeal to die hard Trumpists, and shouldn't try. The Democrats have won the popular vote all but once since 1992. They don't need the nutcases.

Legalsing marijuana, raising the minimum wage, mediacare for all and the like are all popular and voted for when on the ballot. America clearly likes some socialistic policies, even if the corporate media spends all their time villainising their most well known advocates.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:42 pm

Les wrote:The Dems are never going to appeal to die hard Trumpists, and shouldn't try.

That would mean that the US is irretrievably split, would it not?  So, it's futile to attempt to reunify the nation.  Best to expand the capacity of Guantanamo.



Last edited by Original Quill on Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:19 pm

Eilzel wrote:Nice website to pull some impatiality from.

Didn't AOC and the fab four storm to reelection again? Isn't Biden also now promoting a green new deal?

The Dems are never going to appeal to die hard Trumpists, and shouldn't try. The Democrats have won the popular vote all but once since 1992. They don't need the nutcases.

Legalsing marijuana, raising the minimum wage, mediacare for all and the like are all popular and voted for when on the ballot. America clearly likes some socialistic policies, even if the corporate media spends all their time villainising their most well known advocates.

The fab four have appeal in heavily democratic areas. They have little appeal outside of those areas.

That's why the Democrats chose someone like Biden over Sanders.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:20 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Les wrote:The Dems are never going to appeal to die hard Trumpists, and shouldn't try.

That would mean that the US is irretrievably split, would it not?  So, it's futile to attempt to reunify the nation.  Best to expand the capacity of Guantanamo.

We have always been split. Even during landslides 40% of the population didnt support the winner.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:34 pm

The only hope for America, as it exists today, is a massive reeducation program for the south, and for pockets (of southern zeitgeist) in the north, like Minneapolis and Kenosha. The contradiction is in our founding documents: All men are created equal. In America, that is simply not true. And we will have a permanent Civil War until we make it true.

But reeducation does not fit with American ideas of independent individualism. It’s not a question orientation, southerners say, it’s a question of freedom of opinion…and in my opinion, blacks are inferior!!! So American southern racism is locked in by the very ideology that makes America great: independent individualism. It it’s a real conundrum.

I think Amexit, in some form or other, is the only answer. We have simply got to excise the south, and let them go with a certain ‘tough love’ about it. Maybe they will learn; maybe they will go and join other South American dictatorships. Consider it part of the American experiment…the part that Washington and Jefferson left unanswered.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:49 pm

Original Quill wrote:The only hope for America, as it exists today, is a massive reeducation program for the south, and for pockets (of southern zeitgeist) in the north, like Minneapolis and Kenosha.  The contradiction is in our founding documents: All men are created equal.  In America, that is simply not true.  And we will have a permanent Civil War until we make it true.

But reeducation does not fit with American ideas of independent individualism.  It’s not a question orientation, southerners say, it’s a question of freedom of opinion…and in my opinion, blacks are inferior!!!  So American southern racism is locked in by the very ideology that makes America great: independent individualism.  It it’s a real conundrum.

I think Amexit, in some form or other, is the only answer.  We have simply got to excise the south, and let them go with a certain ‘tough love’ about it.  Maybe they will learn; maybe they will go and join other South American dictatorships.  Consider it part of the American experiment…the part that Washington and Jefferson left unanswered.

Haha.

Nice one Walter.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:06 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:The only hope for America, as it exists today, is a massive reeducation program for the south, and for pockets (of southern zeitgeist) in the north, like Minneapolis and Kenosha.  The contradiction is in our founding documents: All men are created equal.  In America, that is simply not true.  And we will have a permanent Civil War until we make it true.

But reeducation does not fit with American ideas of independent individualism.  It’s not a question orientation, southerners say, it’s a question of freedom of opinion…and in my opinion, blacks are inferior!!!  So American southern racism is locked in by the very ideology that makes America great: independent individualism.  It it’s a real conundrum.

I think Amexit, in some form or other, is the only answer.  We have simply got to excise the south, and let them go with a certain ‘tough love’ about it.  Maybe they will learn; maybe they will go and join other South American dictatorships.  Consider it part of the American experiment…the part that Washington and Jefferson left unanswered.

Haha.

Nice one Walter.  

Thank you. It's irrefutable that America's crisscrossing ideologies create a knot that cannot be undone. Americans believe in independent individualism; southerners believe in racism; independent individualism locks in racism.

All would be well had Jefferson written: Only white men are created equal. But he did not. He was reaching for a more noble principle, but alas...southerners are not that noble.

As a result, America is a 'locked-in', racist nation. What therapy is recommended for a cancerous tumor? Excise it. Racism is such a tumor. Excise it.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:20 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Haha.

Nice one Walter.  

Thank you.  It's irrefutable that America's crisscrossing ideologies create a knot that cannot be undone.  Americans believe in independent individualism; southerners believe in racism; independent individualism locks in racism.

All would be well had Jefferson written: Only white men are created equal.  But he did not.  He was reaching for a more noble principle, but alas...southerners are not that noble.

As a result, America is a 'locked-in', racist nation.  What therapy is recommended for a cancerous tumor?  Excise it.  Racism is such a tumor.  Excise it.


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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:33 pm

I'll take it. Wink

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Eilzel on Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:33 am

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Nice website to pull some impatiality from.

Didn't AOC and the fab four storm to reelection again? Isn't Biden also now promoting a green new deal?

The Dems are never going to appeal to die hard Trumpists, and shouldn't try. The Democrats have won the popular vote all but once since 1992. They don't need the nutcases.

Legalsing marijuana, raising the minimum wage, mediacare for all and the like are all popular and voted for when on the ballot. America clearly likes some socialistic policies, even if the corporate media spends all their time villainising their most well known advocates.

The fab four have appeal in heavily democratic areas.  They have little appeal outside of those areas.

That's why the Democrats chose someone like Biden over Sanders.  

And yet those things I mentioned in my last paragraph are voted for when on ballots.

The reason the four aren't as popular is because the entire corporate media (CNN, Fox, NBC etc) AND the online conservative commentators never stop attacking them.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:16 am

Bit tired of the false right-wing narrative that Biden-Harris barely scraped a win:

Electoral College
Biden 306
Trump 232

Popular Vote
Biden 78,187,409 - 50.9%
Trump 72,767,316 - 47.3%

Wins by 5,420,093 votes
Wins by 3.6%
Wins by 74 Electoral College votes
Flips PA, MI, WI, AZ & GA

Wins West, Southwest, Upper Midwest, Northeast & New England

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Post by Didgee on Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:53 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Bit tired of the false right-wing narrative that Biden-Harris barely scraped a win:

Electoral College
Biden 306
Trump 232

Popular Vote
Biden 78,187,409 - 50.9%
Trump 72,767,316 - 47.3%

Wins by 5,420,093 votes
Wins by 3.6%
Wins by 74 Electoral College votes
Flips PA, MI, WI, AZ & GA

Wins West, Southwest, Upper Midwest, Northeast & New England

Who is claiming that and what does that have to do with the OP?

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Post by Maddog on Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:46 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The fab four have appeal in heavily democratic areas.  They have little appeal outside of those areas.

That's why the Democrats chose someone like Biden over Sanders.  

And yet those things I mentioned in my last paragraph are voted for when on ballots.

The reason the four aren't as popular is because the entire corporate media (CNN, Fox, NBC etc) AND the online conservative commentators never stop attacking them.

The reason they aren't popular is because they focus too much on social issues and because socialism isn't popular across the country. Drug legalization isn't socialist. Minimum wage isn't really, it's just government interference into the market place.

They would have been the first ones screaming about the use of the word "colored" which was discussed heavily in the other thread.

Most people are just tired of that bullshit. They are tired of woke SJWs and the like.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:41 pm

Socialism, as a word, is an anathema.  That we don't like the 'S'-word is one of those ideas that were planted during the 1950's, during the commie scare and McCarthyism.

But as an idea, it is really quite liked...and accepted.  One socialist (Sanders) has really become quite the favorite in presidential politics, proving that the younger generation of voters have a greater appreciation for the economic theory.

Socialism--as distinct from the mythical Marxism—is simply a response to the rising cost of tooling in a modern, industrial nation.  In the 18th-century, and before, all that was required was a hammer and a workbench, or anvil, for the factory to exist.  But as the industrial revolution approached, someone needed to buy a building, and increasingly complex machines, conveyer belts, presses, drills, etc., in order to mass produce.

It was either the workers, pooling their resources, or outside capitalists, who demanded absolute control through ownership: socialism vs. capitalism.  See, Lichtheim, George, A Short History of Socialism (1970).

The only revision to the socialist theory has been when someone posed the idea that the government step in to replace the workers’ funding the capital necessary.  This idea turned the system on its head, suggesting that capital was control, when no such thing was intended.

Then, instead of simply providing capital, the government was seen as taking over…becoming the boss-man to the workers’ beast-of-burden.  Socialism provoked all the worst images of capitalism, without ever intending it.

That is why socialism works, as long as we aren’t really speaking the word. Silently, we have grown our military along socialist lines, and likewise our emergency services such as police, ambulance services, hospitals and general services.  It actually is quite a workable solution, if only we don’t speak the ‘S’-word.  

AOC and the fab four are really just the next generation, coming to the realization that socialism is just a benign economic theory—and, to the horror of the 1950’s generation, uttering the ‘S’-word openly.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:04 pm

Didgee wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Bit tired of the false right-wing narrative that Biden-Harris barely scraped a win:

Electoral College
Biden 306
Trump 232

Popular Vote
Biden 78,187,409 - 50.9%
Trump 72,767,316 - 47.3%

Wins by 5,420,093 votes
Wins by 3.6%
Wins by 74 Electoral College votes
Flips PA, MI, WI, AZ & GA

Wins West, Southwest, Upper Midwest, Northeast & New England

Who is claiming that and what does that have to do with the OP?

The statment in the OP that the Democrats came far closer to losing the presidential race than they thought possible. Biden-Harris won decisively.

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Post by gelico on Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:01 am



Biden won? I didn't realise it had finally been announced officially

last time i checked they were still recounting in Georgia


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Post by Didgee on Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:27 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Didgee wrote:

Who is claiming that and what does that have to do with the OP?

The statment in the OP that the Democrats came far closer to losing the presidential race than they thought possible. Biden-Harris won decisively.

You do not think swing voters played a part?

Yet again you fail to see the point in the OP

So let me dumb this down for you

Would Biden have won without these swing voters in the key states?

They won because of them, the point you miss

As how close were many states Ben?

You really come out with bullocks at time Ben

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:09 am

gelico wrote:

Biden won?  I didn't realise it had finally been announced officially

last time i checked they were still recounting in Georgia


The result of Georgia won't change anything. But it will go to Biden Smile

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Post by Maddog on Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:17 pm

The reason it seems close is because it took a week for the press to declare a winner.

Historically (at least in our lives) we know before we go to bed or at least by the next morning.

Technically we dont have a winner before December 14, but that's the way it is every election.

It will be interesting to see what the recount in Georgia reveals. It won't change the election, at least for president. It may shed some light on the security and accuracy of the system.

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Post by Maddog on Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:20 pm

Original Quill wrote:Socialism, as a word, is an anathema.  That we don't like the 'S'-word is one of those ideas that were planted during the 1950's, during the commie scare and McCarthyism.

But as an idea, it is really quite liked...and accepted.  One socialist (Sanders) has really become quite the favorite in presidential politics, proving that the younger generation of voters have a greater appreciation for the economic theory.

Socialism--as distinct from the mythical Marxism—is simply a response to the rising cost of tooling in a modern, industrial nation.  In the 18th-century, and before, all that was required was a hammer and a workbench, or anvil, for the factory to exist.  But as the industrial revolution approached, someone needed to buy a building, and increasingly complex machines, conveyer belts, presses, drills, etc., in order to mass produce.

It was either the workers, pooling their resources, or outside capitalists, who demanded absolute control through ownership: socialism vs. capitalism.  See, Lichtheim, George, A Short History of Socialism (1970).

The only revision to the socialist theory has been when someone posed the idea that the government step in to replace the workers’ funding the capital necessary.  This idea turned the system on its head, suggesting that capital was control, when no such thing was intended.

Then, instead of simply providing capital, the government was seen as taking over…becoming the boss-man to the workers’ beast-of-burden.  Socialism provoked all the worst images of capitalism, without ever intending it.

That is why socialism works, as long as we aren’t really speaking the word. Silently, we have grown our military along socialist lines, and likewise our emergency services such as police, ambulance services, hospitals and general services.  It actually is quite a workable solution, if only we don’t speak the ‘S’-word.  

AOC and the fab four are really just the next generation, coming to the realization that socialism is just a benign economic theory—and, to the horror of the 1950’s generation, uttering the ‘S’-word openly.

Government services funded by taxes are not socialism.

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The policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
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Post by Maddog on Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:17 pm

Socialism requires social ownership. It's in the fucking word. The Democratic Socialists of America spell it out very clear. They are not talking about funding the fire department. They do support a handful of congressmen like AOC.


Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives



https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/


When real socialists tell you what they believe, maybe you should listen to them.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:36 pm

Maddog wrote:Government services funded by taxes are not socialism.

What is the distinction?

Socialism—as I keep pointing out—is a term of economics.  In economics, everything is to do with production.  Whomever produces the goods and services is the source of the distinction.  

In a democracy, “social” relates to the collective will of the people.  The defining characteristic is what entity organizes and creates government services.  By capitalizing them, the government, in its representative capacity of the people, assumes that responsibility.  Thus, that which is produced by the collective government is social-ism.

'Government services' is simply another term for government capitalization of certain functions that are deemed so essential they avoid the profit-seeking association.  But government capitalization is socialism, no matter how you try to avoid it.


Last edited by Original Quill on Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Maddog on Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:37 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:Government services funded by taxes are not socialism.

What is the distinction?

Socialism—as I keep pointing out—is a term of economics.  In economics, everything is to do with production.  Whomever produces the goods and services is the source of the distinction.  

In a democracy, “social” relates to the collective will of the people.  The defining characteristic is what entity organizes and creates government services.  By capitalizing them, the government, in its representative capacity of the people, assumes that responsibility.  Thus, that which is produced by the collectivity is social-ism.

'Government services' is simply another term for government capitalization of certain functions that are deemed so essential they avoid the profit-seeking association.  But government capitalization is socialism, no matter how you try to avoid it.

Socialism doesn't even require government professor. 😎

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:56 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

What is the distinction?

Socialism—as I keep pointing out—is a term of economics.  In economics, everything is to do with production.  Whomever produces the goods and services is the source of the distinction.  

In a democracy, “social” relates to the collective will of the people.  The defining characteristic is what entity organizes and creates government services.  By capitalizing them, the government, in its representative capacity of the people, assumes that responsibility.  Thus, that which is produced by the collectivity is social-ism.

'Government services' is simply another term for government capitalization of certain functions that are deemed so essential they avoid the profit-seeking association.  But government capitalization is socialism, no matter how you try to avoid it.

Socialism doesn't even require government professor.  😎

I know.  You are confused in your logic, Red.  Socialism is the higher category, and government is but one form of socialism.  There are other social entities that capitalize production: guilds, co-operatives, collectives and councils, for example.  They are all socialism.

But government capitalization is definitely one form of socialism, nonetheless.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:25 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Socialism doesn't even require government professor.  😎

I know.  You are confused in your logic, Red.  Socialism is the higher category, and government is but one form of socialism.  There are other social entities that capitalize production: guilds, co-operatives, collectives and councils, for example.  They are all socialism.

But government capitalization is definitely one form of socialism, nonetheless.

So I'll refer you to the post above from the DSA.

When socialists tell you what they want I suggest you listen and stop with childlike equation of government services and socialism.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:17 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I know.  You are confused in your logic, Red.  Socialism is the higher category, and government is but one form of socialism.  There are other social entities that capitalize production: guilds, co-operatives, collectives and councils, for example.  They are all socialism.

But government capitalization is definitely one form of socialism, nonetheless.

So I'll refer you to the post above from the DSA.

When socialists tell you what they want I suggest you listen and stop with childlike equation of government services and socialism.

That's it? That's all the reasoning power you possess? STOP IT…it hurts!!!!! **stamps foot**

You "refer" us to the DSA, but you won't discuss what it is about the DSA that defines socialism (small 's')?

I mean, you started this whole issue by saying that government services are not socialism. But you get a few words into the discussion, and you point to someone else: ...ask dem...dos guys over deah... If you had no personal basis or knowledge for saying it, why did you claim that government services are not socialism?

That's not very persuasive to the independent mind. I thought you had something of substance to give us. Guess not.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:57 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

So I'll refer you to the post above from the DSA.

When socialists tell you what they want I suggest you listen and stop with childlike equation of government services and socialism.

That's it?  That's all the reasoning power you possess?  STOP IT…it hurts!!!!!  **stamps foot**

You "refer" us to the DSA, but you won't discuss what it is about the DSA that defines socialism (small 's')?

I mean, you started this whole issue by saying that government services are not socialism.  But you get a few words into the discussion, and you point to someone else: ...ask dem...dos guys over deah...  If you had no personal basis or knowledge for saying it, why did you claim that government services are not socialism?

That's not very persuasive to the independent mind.  I thought you had something of substance to give us.  Guess not.

Read it and inform yourself or continue in ignorance.

I don't give a fuck either way.

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Post by Maddog on Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:00 pm

Let me add this.

I don't care what you think socialism is. It doesn't matter.

Socialists have made it clear what it is, and that's all tjat matters.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:55 pm

Maddog wrote:Let me add this.

I don't care what you think socialism is. It doesn't matter.

Socialists have made it clear what it is, and that's all tjat matters.  

Tough talk doesn't supplant reason. What is it with you southerners: y'all think that force is a substitute for comprehension?

You don't answer because you can't...you are wrong. You're looking for a quick way out. Here's an easy way: don't make dumb statements you can't back up.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:26 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:Let me add this.

I don't care what you think socialism is. It doesn't matter.

Socialists have made it clear what it is, and that's all tjat matters.  

Tough talk doesn't supplant reason.  What is it with you southerners: y'all think that force is a substitute for comprehension?

You don't answer because you can't...you are wrong.  You're looking for a quick way out.  Here's an easy way: don't make dumb statements you can't back up.

Its not tough talk you dumb fuck. Its relying on Socialists to tell you what they believe. Not some pretend lawyer babbling away on a forum.

Who should we listen to in terms of the socialist agenda in the US?

Quill the dumb fuck or these folks?

https://www.dsausa.org/

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:52 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Tough talk doesn't supplant reason.  What is it with you southerners: y'all think that force is a substitute for comprehension?

You don't answer because you can't...you are wrong.  You're looking for a quick way out.  Here's an easy way: don't make dumb statements you can't back up.

Its not tough talk you dumb fuck.  Its relying on Socialists to tell you what they believe. Not some pretend lawyer babbling away on a forum.  

Who should we listen to in terms of the socialist agenda in the US?

Quill the dumb fuck or these folks?

https://www.dsausa.org/

Again with the four-letter words and insults. You sound nervous...unsure of yourself.

I don't need you to give us a website. Nor do I need you to rephrase the question...I'm not asking who can tell us, I'm asking you to tell us: HOW ARE GOVERNMENT SERVICES DIFFERENT FROM SOCIALISM?

Here...I'll structure your answer for you: (1) What is socialism? (2) What are government services? (3) How do government services differ from socialism? Answer those questions and we can have a dialogue.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:09 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Its not tough talk you dumb fuck.  Its relying on Socialists to tell you what they believe. Not some pretend lawyer babbling away on a forum.  

Who should we listen to in terms of the socialist agenda in the US?

Quill the dumb fuck or these folks?

https://www.dsausa.org/

Again with the four-letter words and insults.  You sound nervous...unsure of yourself.

I don't need you to give us a website.  Nor do I need you to rephrase the question...I'm not asking who can tell us, I'm asking you to tell us: HOW ARE GOVERNMENT SERVICES DIFFERENT FROM SOCIALISM?

Here...I'll structure your answer for you: (1) What is socialism?  (2) What are government services?  (3) How do government services differ from socialism?  Answer those questions and we can have a dialogue.

No you need the platform of the Socialists. Feel free to continue to ignore it and make up your own version of their positions and beliefs.


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Post by Original Quill on Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:05 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Again with the four-letter words and insults.  You sound nervous...unsure of yourself.

I don't need you to give us a website.  Nor do I need you to rephrase the question...I'm not asking who can tell us, I'm asking you to tell us: HOW ARE GOVERNMENT SERVICES DIFFERENT FROM SOCIALISM?

Here...I'll structure your answer for you: (1) What is socialism?  (2) What are government services?  (3) How do government services differ from socialism?  Answer those questions and we can have a dialogue.

No you need the platform of the Socialists. Feel free to continue to ignore it and make up your own version of their positions and beliefs.  

Why does anyone need "the platform of the Socialists" to do something as simple as defining socialism?  Who cares what they say? I doubt they give a definition.

I have already referenced Professor George Lichtheim, the pre-emanant scholar in the field of socialism...and you want me to reference what???  Some sophomoric website of some low-rent political party?  Political parties are just trolling for votes; they are hardly a good source for true meaning. I'm asking you the real philosophical question: what is your idea of socialism?

Here, catch up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lichtheim#:~:text=George%20Lichtheim%20(Berlin%3B%201912%20%E2%80%93,liberal%20and%20never%20have%20been.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:57 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

No you need the platform of the Socialists. Feel free to continue to ignore it and make up your own version of their positions and beliefs.  

Why does anyone need "the platform of the Socialists" to do something as simple as defining socialism?  Who cares what they say?  I doubt they give a definition.

I have already referenced Professor George Lichtheim, the pre-emanant scholar in the field of socialism...and you want me to reference what???  Some sophomoric website of some low-rent political party?  Political parties are just trolling for votes; they are hardly a good source for true meaning.  I'm asking you the real philosophical question: what is your idea of socialism?

Here, catch up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lichtheim#:~:text=George%20Lichtheim%20(Berlin%3B%201912%20%E2%80%93,liberal%20and%20never%20have%20been.

Here you go.

https://www.dsausa.org/

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:57 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Why does anyone need "the platform of the Socialists" to do something as simple as defining socialism?  Who cares what they say?  I doubt they give a definition.

I have already referenced Professor George Lichtheim, the pre-emanant scholar in the field of socialism...and you want me to reference what???  Some sophomoric website of some low-rent political party?  Political parties are just trolling for votes; they are hardly a good source for true meaning.  I'm asking you the real philosophical question: what is your idea of socialism?

Here, catch up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lichtheim#:~:text=George%20Lichtheim%20(Berlin%3B%201912%20%E2%80%93,liberal%20and%20never%20have%20been.

Here you go.

https://www.dsausa.org/

What about it?  Your site still doesn't define socialism, and it doesn't distinguish government services.  All it does is try to sell its own organization of working people.  It's way off-point from the discussion we are having.

I don't know why you are trying to redirect our attention away from the questions here: (1) What is socialism?  (2) What are government services?  (3) How do government services differ from socialism?  You raised the subject, now you are trying to sell some websites loosely associated with the "working people".  It doesn't begin to address the questions you first raised.

Could it be that you have never studied the subject of socialism and are blindly trying to legitimize your prejudices?  We are here to work past that point.  Try expressing yourself...in your own words.  Whether you are right or wrong doesn't matter; at least we lay it all out on the table before us and begin to sort things through.  Hiding behind some remote website because it uses the same term, doesn't lend itself to any resolution.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:24 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Here you go.

https://www.dsausa.org/

What about it?  Your site still doesn't define socialism, and it doesn't distinguish government services.  All it does is try to sell its own organization of working people.  It's way off-point from the discussion we are having.

I don't know why you are trying to redirect our attention away from the questions here: (1) What is socialism?  (2) What are government services?  (3) How do government services differ from socialism?  You raised the subject, now you are trying to sell some websites loosely associated with the "working people".  It doesn't begin to address the questions you first raised.

Could it be that you have never studied the subject of socialism and are blindly trying to legitimize your prejudices?  We are here to work past that point.  Try expressing yourself...in your own words.  Whether you are right or wrong doesn't matter; at least we lay it all out on the table before us and begin to sort things through.  Hiding behind some remote website because it uses the same term, doesn't lend itself to any resolution.

I don't have any questions.

If you do, I suggest you do some research. I've given you a link several times.


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Post by gelico on Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:37 am




has California gone Republican?

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Post by Maddog on Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:53 am

gelico wrote:


has California gone Republican?

Not even close. There are millions of good people there, forced to live under the rule of white, urban liberals who know what's best for everyone.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:58 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

What about it?  Your site still doesn't define socialism, and it doesn't distinguish government services.  All it does is try to sell its own organization of working people.  It's way off-point from the discussion we are having.

I don't know why you are trying to redirect our attention away from the questions here: (1) What is socialism?  (2) What are government services?  (3) How do government services differ from socialism?  You raised the subject, now you are trying to sell some websites loosely associated with the "working people".  It doesn't begin to address the questions you first raised.

Could it be that you have never studied the subject of socialism and are blindly trying to legitimize your prejudices?  We are here to work past that point.  Try expressing yourself...in your own words.  Whether you are right or wrong doesn't matter; at least we lay it all out on the table before us and begin to sort things through.  Hiding behind some remote website because it uses the same term, doesn't lend itself to any resolution.

I don't have any questions.

I know you don't.  You have the intellectual curiosity of a snail.

Maddog wrote:If you do, I suggest you do some research. I've given you a link several times.

A link to what?  A political party?  That's fools trying to get donations...and they still don't answer the questions.

I've given you a scholarly link.  It discusses the theory of socialism...something you have no understanding of.

Go back and play in your sandbox, little man.  Evil or Very Mad

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:06 am

Maddog wrote:Socialism requires social ownership. It's in the fucking word. The Democratic Socialists of America spell it out very clear. They are not talking about funding the fire department. They do support a handful of congressmen like AOC.


Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives



https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/


When real socialists tell you what they believe, maybe you should listen to them.



Just like the German national socialist party agenda...



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Post by Maddog on Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:53 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I don't have any questions.

I know you don't.  You have the intellectual curiosity of a snail.

Maddog wrote:If you do, I suggest you do some research. I've given you a link several times.

A link to what?  A political party?  That's fools trying to get donations...and they still don't answer the questions.

I've given you a scholarly link.  It discusses the theory of socialism...something you have no understanding of.

Go back and play in your sandbox, little man.  Evil or Very Mad

https://www.dsausa.org/

Once more.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:07 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Fascist_Party

Wink

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Post by gelico on Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:37 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I don't have any questions.

I know you don't.  You have the intellectual curiosity of a snail.

Maddog wrote:If you do, I suggest you do some research. I've given you a link several times.

A link to what?  A political party?  That's fools trying to get donations...and they still don't answer the questions.

I've given you a scholarly link.  It discusses the theory of socialism...something you have no understanding of.

Go back and play in your sandbox, little man.  Evil or Very Mad

on the issue of elections, ie, a set of people gaining power over others, surely it matters much more what a political party says than any ''scholarly discussion''

if a party who is seeking power clearly defines what ''their'' interpretation of socialism is then maybe we should pay attention, no?


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Post by Original Quill on Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:41 pm

gelico wrote:on the issue of elections, ie, a set of people gaining power over others, surely it matters much more what a political party says than any ''scholarly discussion''

if a party who is seeking power clearly defines what ''their'' interpretation of socialism is then maybe we should pay attention, no?

I would agree, but it's the wrong place to look.  The problem is, the party websites don't say anything about who they are and what they represent.  Nor do they discuss distinctions and/or philosophical details.  A political party website exists, not to explain themselves (they assume you already know that), but to accrue votes and resources.

The common person doesn't know the difference between a sales website (which is what a political party website is), and a source for a political or economic history and analysis.  The difference is: with the one you will receive a sales-pitch; with the other you will see an objective overview.

In order to know where to look, you've got to know what you're looking for.  In order to study the rise and success of the Ford Motor Co., for example, you don't go to a Ford ad, but to a source on the history of the enterprise.  It's the difference between a commercial endeavor, and a scholarly endeavor.

In order to source the history and structure of socialism, you don't go to an ad, but to a scholar like George Lichtheim, who has objectively studied the subject. Southerners are not astute when it comes to scholarly matters...they hardly know the difference between a physician and a politician.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:50 am

gelico wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I know you don't.  You have the intellectual curiosity of a snail.



A link to what?  A political party?  That's fools trying to get donations...and they still don't answer the questions.

I've given you a scholarly link.  It discusses the theory of socialism...something you have no understanding of.

Go back and play in your sandbox, little man.  Evil or Very Mad

on the issue of elections, ie, a set of people gaining power over others, surely it matters much more what a political party says than any ''scholarly discussion''

if a party who is seeking power clearly defines what ''their'' interpretation of socialism is then maybe we should pay attention, no?


Correct. The DSA work with people like AOC and Sanders. They know what socialism is and make no bones about what they want.

Quill has a hard time grasping the concept that his opinion is irrelevant. The DSA embraces social ownership of the means of production because that's what socialism is. They are working to transform the country into something that matches that ideology.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:54 pm

Maddog wrote:The DSA embraces social ownership of the means of production because that's what socialism is. They are working to transform the country into something that matches that ideology.


I agree...and always have.  Red, you have completely lost the core of the discussion.  You started this sub-topic by making a distinction for government services: you said the military and police are "government services".  But there is no category for "government services".  What is "government" is what you are used to...all you are saying is that we are used to the government capitalizing the military and police, etc.

Government services = produced or provided by the government.  If the US went into the business of providing laundry services, it would be just a service provided by the government.  It is a form of socialism: "social ownership of the means of production".

Get used to socialism, because we are seeing more and more of it in an uncertain world.  It's not just the military, police, fire, and emergency response services.  We are seeing it in traditional capitalist areas such as the Federal Reserve Bank, and bail-outs for insurance markets, bail-outs for the automobile industry, the real estate mortgage market, and investment banking.

The lure of socialism is that it provides security.  If the government backs it, it eliminates the risk.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:23 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:The DSA embraces social ownership of the means of production because that's what socialism is. They are working to transform the country into something that matches that ideology.


I agree...and always have.  Red, you have completely lost the core of the discussion.  You started this sub-topic by making a distinction for government services: you said the military and police are "government services".  But there is no category for "government services".  What is "government" is what you are used to...all you are saying is that we are used to the government capitalizing the military and police, etc.

Government services = produced or provided by the government.  If the US went into the business of providing laundry services, it would be just a service provided by the government.  It is a form of socialism: "social ownership of the means of production".

Get used to socialism, because we are seeing more and more of it in an uncertain world.  It's not just the military, police, fire, and emergency response services.  We are seeing it in traditional capitalist areas such as the Federal Reserve Bank, and bail-outs for insurance markets, bail-outs for the automobile industry, the real estate mortgage market, and investment banking.

The lure of socialism is that it provides security.  If the government backs it, it eliminates the risk.

I wasnt talking to you fuck face.

Move along.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:16 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:


I agree...and always have.  Red, you have completely lost the core of the discussion.  You started this sub-topic by making a distinction for government services: you said the military and police are "government services".  But there is no category for "government services".  What is "government" is what you are used to...all you are saying is that we are used to the government capitalizing the military and police, etc.

Government services = produced or provided by the government.  If the US went into the business of providing laundry services, it would be just a service provided by the government.  It is a form of socialism: "social ownership of the means of production".

Get used to socialism, because we are seeing more and more of it in an uncertain world.  It's not just the military, police, fire, and emergency response services.  We are seeing it in traditional capitalist areas such as the Federal Reserve Bank, and bail-outs for insurance markets, bail-outs for the automobile industry, the real estate mortgage market, and investment banking.

The lure of socialism is that it provides security.  If the government backs it, it eliminates the risk.

I wasnt talking to you fuck face.  

Move along.

Yet, you listen and learn...breaking with the ignorance of those primitive southern ways. Pretty soon we'll get you to put down the guns, leave your sister alone, and start reading books.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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