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Trump's options: Win or go to prison

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:03 pm

Huffington Post wrote:

WASHINGTON ― If Donald Trump seems more desperate than most incumbents about the coming election, he may have good reason: Presidents do not typically have to worry about going to prison if they lose.

But Trump’s activities in recent years ― from paying hush money to a porn star to his claiming of a massive tax refund to obstructing an investigation into his campaign’s ties to Russia ― combined with a ticking statute of limitations clock potentially make Election Day far more consequential for him than it had been for his predecessors.

If Trump wins a second term, the time limit for starting a prosecution would run out in the next four years for a number of those activities, given Justice Department guidelines not to prosecute a sitting president. If Trump loses, indictments could quickly follow.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:16 pm

Trump will lose.

Trump isn't going to prison.

Huffpost is rag.

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:08 pm

trump will win and is not going to prison anyway...

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:22 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Huffington Post wrote:

WASHINGTON ― If Donald Trump seems more desperate than most incumbents about the coming election, he may have good reason: Presidents do not typically have to worry about going to prison if they lose.

But Trump’s activities in recent years ― from paying hush money to a porn star to his claiming of a massive tax refund to obstructing an investigation into his campaign’s ties to Russia ― combined with a ticking statute of limitations clock potentially make Election Day far more consequential for him than it had been for his predecessors.

If Trump wins a second term, the time limit for starting a prosecution would run out in the next four years for a number of those activities, given Justice Department guidelines not to prosecute a sitting president. If Trump loses, indictments could quickly follow.

The biggest threat is the State of New York. As to federal charges, it is my belief that Trump will either try to pardon himself, or resign just before the last hour, and have Vice-President Pence pardon him, as Nixon did. But, of course, the pardon power vested in a president does not extend to other jurisdictions, such as state governments.

New York has already commenced civil proceedings, and has averred to the courts (federal and state) that criminal charges could be pending. Trump also has heavy dealings in California, Illinois and Florida, and elsewhere, and there is no reason to believe he changed his tactics in dealing with them. If illegal, those states will treat the New York charges as a template for how to proceed in their jurisdictions.

As far as the righteousness of criminal proceedings, on the one hand you have the stigma of mixing politics with crime, and it’s very third-world (or Russian) to pursue one’s political opponent with criminal charges. On the other hand, Trump has done a lot of damage to the institutions of state. He has frequently violated both State and Federal law, as well as Constitutional law, and to ratify his misdeeds by legal inaction could be dangerous. What is to prevent someone down the road from holding up Trump’s violations as precedent, and doing the same? They would argue that such misdeeds were approved by never charging or convicting Trump, and so the misdeeds must be all right today.

I have frequently said that the one wrong thing that Obama did was not to charge former Vice-President Richard Cheney for his crimes. It taught Republicans that people in high office were immune from criminal prosecution. Trump—or his mentor, Vladimir Putin—looked at that and concluded that status could still prevail over rule of law in the US. If we let Trump get away with it, it will prove that correct.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:30 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Huffington Post wrote:

WASHINGTON ― If Donald Trump seems more desperate than most incumbents about the coming election, he may have good reason: Presidents do not typically have to worry about going to prison if they lose.

But Trump’s activities in recent years ― from paying hush money to a porn star to his claiming of a massive tax refund to obstructing an investigation into his campaign’s ties to Russia ― combined with a ticking statute of limitations clock potentially make Election Day far more consequential for him than it had been for his predecessors.

If Trump wins a second term, the time limit for starting a prosecution would run out in the next four years for a number of those activities, given Justice Department guidelines not to prosecute a sitting president. If Trump loses, indictments could quickly follow.

The biggest threat is the State of New York.  As to federal charges, it is my belief that Trump will either try to pardon himself, or resign just before the last hour, and have Vice-President Pence pardon him, as Nixon did.  But, of course, the pardon power vested in a president does not extend to other jurisdictions, such as state governments.

New York has already commenced civil proceedings, and has averred to the courts (federal and state) that criminal charges could be pending.  Trump also has heavy dealings in California, Illinois and Florida, and elsewhere, and there is no reason to believe he changed his tactics in dealing with them.  If illegal, those states will treat the New York charges as a template for how to proceed in their jurisdictions.

As far as the righteousness of criminal proceedings, on the one hand you have the stigma of mixing politics with crime, and it’s very third-world (or Russian) to pursue one’s political opponent with criminal charges.  On the other hand, Trump has done a lot of damage to the institutions of state.  He has frequently violated both State and Federal law, as well as Constitutional law, and to ratify his misdeeds by legal inaction could be dangerous.  What is to prevent someone down the road from holding up Trump’s violations as precedent, and doing the same?  They would argue that such misdeeds were approved by never charging or convicting Trump, and so the misdeeds must be all right today.

I have frequently said that the one wrong thing that Obama did was not to charge former Vice-President Richard Cheney for his crimes.  It taught Republicans that people in high office were immune from criminal prosecution.  Trump—or his mentor, Vladimir Putin—looked at that and concluded that status could still prevail over rule of law in the US.  If we let Trump get away with it, it will prove that correct.

Shocked Shocked lol! lol! I assume your sources are the beano and the dandy.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:52 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Huffington Post wrote:

WASHINGTON ― If Donald Trump seems more desperate than most incumbents about the coming election, he may have good reason: Presidents do not typically have to worry about going to prison if they lose.

But Trump’s activities in recent years ― from paying hush money to a porn star to his claiming of a massive tax refund to obstructing an investigation into his campaign’s ties to Russia ― combined with a ticking statute of limitations clock potentially make Election Day far more consequential for him than it had been for his predecessors.

If Trump wins a second term, the time limit for starting a prosecution would run out in the next four years for a number of those activities, given Justice Department guidelines not to prosecute a sitting president. If Trump loses, indictments could quickly follow.

The biggest threat is the State of New York.  As to federal charges, it is my belief that Trump will either try to pardon himself, or resign just before the last hour, and have Vice-President Pence pardon him, as Nixon did.  But, of course, the pardon power vested in a president does not extend to other jurisdictions, such as state governments.

New York has already commenced civil proceedings, and has averred to the courts (federal and state) that criminal charges could be pending.  Trump also has heavy dealings in California, Illinois and Florida, and elsewhere, and there is no reason to believe he changed his tactics in dealing with them.  If illegal, those states will treat the New York charges as a template for how to proceed in their jurisdictions.

As far as the righteousness of criminal proceedings, on the one hand you have the stigma of mixing politics with crime, and it’s very third-world (or Russian) to pursue one’s political opponent with criminal charges.  On the other hand, Trump has done a lot of damage to the institutions of state.  He has frequently violated both State and Federal law, as well as Constitutional law, and to ratify his misdeeds by legal inaction could be dangerous.  What is to prevent someone down the road from holding up Trump’s violations as precedent, and doing the same?  They would argue that such misdeeds were approved by never charging or convicting Trump, and so the misdeeds must be all right today.

I have frequently said that the one wrong thing that Obama did was not to charge former Vice-President Richard Cheney for his crimes.  It taught Republicans that people in high office were immune from criminal prosecution.  Trump—or his mentor, Vladimir Putin—looked at that and concluded that status could still prevail over rule of law in the US.  If we let Trump get away with it, it will prove that correct.

Once he's gone there might be some Mickey Mouse, Dog and Pony show theatrics about trying to prosecute him, to create the illusion that people in his position are not above the law. He may even pay some fines, but nothing material will come out of this system.

Trump will never go to prison.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:54 pm

inmyopinion wrote:trump will win and is not going to prison anyway...

I've never seen do many signs and support for a Dem in Republican strongholds in Texas. I doubt Biden wins Texas, but he will make it close. Trump is done in the purple ish states.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:44 pm

Maddog wrote:Once he's gone there might be some Mickey Mouse, Dog and Pony show theatrics about trying to prosecute him, to create the illusion that people in his position are not above the law. He may even pay some fines, but nothing material will come out of this system.

Trump will never go to prison.

Do you think theatrics will satisfy the people, or hold the country together? I don't. In the post-Trump era, something meaningful has to happen.

The demise of the Republican Party began in the post-Johnson era. The infection began with Nixon, and then proceeded to Reagan and his Iran-Contra scheme. Thence on to GWB, when the Reagan-era thugs (Rumsfeld and Cheney) put daddy's kid up front, proceeded to start wars on false premises, and lauded torture, kidnapping, rape and murder as legitimate means of governing.

And then there's Trump. He has brought the Republican Party to the status of a cult. So, do you believe that histrionics can do away with cults? I think the seed has grown into a tree, and we can no longer wish it away.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:Once he's gone there might be some Mickey Mouse, Dog and Pony show theatrics about trying to prosecute him, to create the illusion that people in his position are not above the law. He may even pay some fines, but nothing material will come out of this system.

Trump will never go to prison.

Do you think theatrics will satisfy the people, or hold the country together?  I don't.  In the post-Trump era, something meaningful has to happen.

The demise of the Republican Party began in the post-Johnson era.  The infection began with Nixon, and then proceeded to Reagan and his Iran-Contra scheme.  Thence on to GWB, when the Reagan-era thugs (Rumsfeld and Cheney) put daddy's kid up front, proceeded to start wars on false premises, and lauded torture, kidnapping, rape and murder as legitimate means of governing.

And then there's Trump.  He has brought the Republican Party to the status of a cult.  So, do you believe that histrionics can do away with cults?  I think the seed has grown into a tree, and we can no longer wish it away.
Let's see what the real Americans vote, that's the best way.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:49 pm

Define "real Americans."

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:56 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Define "real Americans."

not brain dead or lefties, actually the same thing I guess.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:09 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Define "real Americans."

not brain dead or lefties, actually the same thing I guess.

That sounds more like you are wishing, not factual.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:26 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:Once he's gone there might be some Mickey Mouse, Dog and Pony show theatrics about trying to prosecute him, to create the illusion that people in his position are not above the law. He may even pay some fines, but nothing material will come out of this system.

Trump will never go to prison.

Do you think theatrics will satisfy the people, or hold the country together?  I don't.  In the post-Trump era, something meaningful has to happen.

The demise of the Republican Party began in the post-Johnson era.  The infection began with Nixon, and then proceeded to Reagan and his Iran-Contra scheme.  Thence on to GWB, when the Reagan-era thugs (Rumsfeld and Cheney) put daddy's kid up front, proceeded to start wars on false premises, and lauded torture, kidnapping, rape and murder as legitimate means of governing.

And then there's Trump.  He has brought the Republican Party to the status of a cult.  So, do you believe that histrionics can do away with cults?  I think the seed has grown into a tree, and we can no longer wish it away.

Yes, it will satisfy the people that matter.

And the Republicans will be saying Donald who, Nov 4. He will be like Nixon and will live out his days as persona non grata in the Republican party.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:00 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Do you think theatrics will satisfy the people, or hold the country together? I don't. In the post-Trump era, something meaningful has to happen.

The demise of the Republican Party began in the post-Johnson era. The infection began with Nixon, and then proceeded to Reagan and his Iran-Contra scheme. Thence on to GWB, when the Reagan-era thugs (Rumsfeld and Cheney) put daddy's kid up front, proceeded to start wars on false premises, and lauded torture, kidnapping, rape and murder as legitimate means of governing.

And then there's Trump. He has brought the Republican Party to the status of a cult. So, do you believe that histrionics can do away with cults? I think the seed has grown into a tree, and we can no longer wish it away.

Yes, it will satisfy the people that matter.

And the Republicans will be saying Donald who, Nov 4. He will be like Nixon and will live out his days as persona non grata in the Republican party.

I disagree. The Republicans have a legacy of their own to live down. They are viewed as un-American right now, and there are not many of them left. Thus, a new party will emerge, shifting the political median to the left, where the mainstream of the people is anyway.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:58 am

Maddog wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:trump will win and is not going to prison anyway...

I've never seen do many signs and support for a Dem in Republican strongholds in Texas. I doubt Biden wins Texas, but he will make it close. Trump is done in the purple ish states.    

Do you really think he'll lose so badly? I follow a few different channels and most poll reporters are definitely expecting a Biden win, but some pro-Trump channels are convinced Trump will sneak it, or even storm it; and they give convincing arguments based on voter registration and postal votes in swing states (like Michigan).

I'd hate Trump to win, honestly, I think there is an impact on UK leadership when a nutcase is in the White House.

But it seems the polls may be grossly overstating Biden's chances.

Just 12 days, but I am as far from confident as it's possible to be.

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:05 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I've never seen do many signs and support for a Dem in Republican strongholds in Texas. I doubt Biden wins Texas, but he will make it close. Trump is done in the purple ish states.    

Do you really think he'll lose so badly? I follow a few different channels and most poll reporters are definitely expecting a Biden win, but some pro-Trump channels are convinced Trump will sneak it, or even storm it; and they give convincing arguments based on voter registration and postal votes in swing states (like Michigan).

I'd hate Trump to win, honestly, I think there is an impact on UK leadership when a nutcase is in the White House.

But it seems the polls may be grossly overstating Biden's chances.

Just 12 days, but I am as far from confident as it's possible to be.

Trump will win, he is good for America and will be good for Britain.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:08 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Define "real Americans."

not brain dead or lefties, actually the same thing I guess.

Political beliefs aren't a qualification to be a real American. Real Americans have United States citizenship. A communist lesbian in a wheelchair who was born in Guatemala but obtained her U.S. citizenship five years ago is a real American.

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:18 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

not brain dead or lefties, actually the same thing I guess.

Political beliefs aren't a qualification to be a real American. Real Americans have United States citizenship. A communist lesbian in a wheelchair who was born in Guatemala but obtained her U.S. citizenship five years ago is a real American.

I would argue someone who loves their country and wants the best for it, even if that does not tick all their boxes, is a real American.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:20 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

not brain dead or lefties, actually the same thing I guess.

Political beliefs aren't a qualification to be a real American. Real Americans have United States citizenship. A communist lesbian in a wheelchair who was born in Guatemala but obtained her U.S. citizenship five years ago is a real American.

I would argue someone who loves their country and wants the best for it, even if that does not tick all their boxes, is a real American.

The vast majority of Americans, whether they're Democrat, Republican or other, love their country and want what's best for it. They simply disagree on what would make for the best version of America, that's all. There's certainly no significant political party in America that hates America.

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:24 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

I would argue someone who loves their country and wants the best for it, even if that does not tick all their boxes, is a real American.

The vast majority of Americans, whether they're Democrat, Republican or other, love their country and want what's best for it. They simply disagree on what would make for the best version of America, that's all. There's certainly no significant political party in America that hates America.

Are you so sure or so blind, the left will destroy the world to keep their agenda, the rich will destroy an economy to keep their money, the powerful would destroy an economy and a nation to keep their power.
that is all being played out now, if you look.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:25 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

I would argue someone who loves their country and wants the best for it, even if that does not tick all their boxes, is a real American.

The vast majority of Americans, whether they're Democrat, Republican or other, love their country and want what's best for it. They simply disagree on what would make for the best version of America, that's all. There's certainly no significant political party in America that hates America.

Are you so sure or so blind, the left will destroy the world to keep their agenda, the rich will destroy an economy to keep their money, the powerful would destroy an economy and a nation to keep their power.
that is all being played out now, if you look.

I stand by what I've said. I believe most people are basically good.

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:35 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

I would argue someone who loves their country and wants the best for it, even if that does not tick all their boxes, is a real American.

The vast majority of Americans, whether they're Democrat, Republican or other, love their country and want what's best for it. They simply disagree on what would make for the best version of America, that's all. There's certainly no significant political party in America that hates America.

Are you so sure or so blind, the left will destroy the world to keep their agenda, the rich will destroy an economy to keep their money, the powerful would destroy an economy and a nation to keep their power.
that is all being played out now, if you look.

You want to take your head out of the darker recesses of the internet. The left want to improve their country for everyone. I hate the Right, but I don't pretend they don't mostly want what is best for their country.

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:51 pm

Eilzel wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

Are you so sure or so blind, the left will destroy the world to keep their agenda, the rich will destroy an economy to keep their money, the powerful would destroy an economy and a nation to keep their power.
that is all being played out now, if you look.

You want to take your head out of the darker recesses of the internet. The left want to improve their country for everyone. I hate the Right, but I don't pretend they don't mostly want what is best for their country.

The left are destroying countries and culturess, you can see that being played out every day, unless you are in denial, at least you admit you hate, which is good to let that out.

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:56 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

Are you so sure or so blind, the left will destroy the world to keep their agenda, the rich will destroy an economy to keep their money, the powerful would destroy an economy and a nation to keep their power.
that is all being played out now, if you look.

You want to take your head out of the darker recesses of the internet. The left want to improve their country for everyone. I hate the Right, but I don't pretend they don't mostly want what is best for their country.

The left are destroying countries and culturess, you can see that being played out every day, unless you are in denial, at least you admit you hate, which is good to let that out.

Nonsense. You spout meaningless worse you've heard from fellow conspiracists. I love the UK, and want to see it succeed. You think I hatey country because I support the NHS, higher wages, equality and free education? Insane Rolling Eyes

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:06 pm

Eilzel wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

The left are destroying countries and culturess, you can see that being played out every day, unless you are in denial, at least you admit you hate, which is good to let that out.

Nonsense. You spout meaningless worse you've heard from fellow conspiracists. I love the UK, and want to see it succeed. You think I hatey country because I support the NHS, higher wages, equality and free education? Insane Rolling Eyes

No by your own post you hate right wing, that's a large slice of Britain,what you love is your percieved, bias version of what Britain should be.
you support the left agreed version of education, you think every "right winger"is anti nhs,anti equality, anti higher wages, you sound dafter the more you speak.

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:23 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

The left are destroying countries and culturess, you can see that being played out every day, unless you are in denial, at least you admit you hate, which is good to let that out.

Nonsense. You spout meaningless worse you've heard from fellow conspiracists. I love the UK, and want to see it succeed. You think I hatey country because I support the NHS, higher wages, equality and free education? Insane Rolling Eyes

No by your own post you hate right wing, that's a large slice of Britain,what you love is your percieved, bias version of what Britain should be.
you support the left agreed version of education, you think every "right winger"is anti nhs,anti equality, anti higher wages, you sound dafter the more you speak.

You started by saying you think all LWers hate their country, basically an idiotic statement with zero substance.

I regret responding to you tbh, an intelligent discussion was never likely.

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:25 pm

Eilzel wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

No by your own post you hate right wing, that's a large slice of Britain,what you love is your percieved, bias version of what Britain should be.
you support the left agreed version of education, you think every "right winger"is anti nhs,anti equality, anti higher wages, you sound dafter the more you speak.

You started by saying you think all LWers hate their country, basically an idiotic statement with zero substance.

I regret responding to you tbh, an intelligent discussion was never likely.

no, you regret being caught out by a right winger who you consider beneath you. but being a true leftyyou won'tlearn anything you will just assume you are correct and know best for everyone.lol

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:30 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

No by your own post you hate right wing, that's a large slice of Britain,what you love is your percieved, bias version of what Britain should be.
you support the left agreed version of education, you think every "right winger"is anti nhs,anti equality, anti higher wages, you sound dafter the more you speak.

You started by saying you think all LWers hate their country, basically an idiotic statement with zero substance.

I regret responding to you tbh, an intelligent discussion was never likely.

no, you regret being caught out by a right winger who you consider beneath you. but being a true leftyyou won'tlearn anything you will just assume you are correct and know best for everyone.lol

Says the man who comes in with a baseless claim and the Left hating their countries. Get real.

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:41 pm

Eilzel wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

no, you regret being caught out by a right winger who you consider beneath you. but being a true leftyyou won'tlearn anything you will just assume you are correct and know best for everyone.lol

Says the man who comes in with a baseless claim and the Left hating their countries. Get real.

and by the way I never said they hate their countries.

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:51 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

no, you regret being caught out by a right winger who you consider beneath you. but being a true leftyyou won'tlearn anything you will just assume you are correct and know best for everyone.lol

Says the man who comes in with a baseless claim and the Left hating their countries. Get real.

and by the way I never said they hate their countries.

Semantics.

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:40 pm

Eilzel wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

and by the way I never said they hate their countries.

Semantics.

not at all you spoke about hating as do all the lefty libs for some reason. I didn't.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:30 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

Are you so sure or so blind, the left will destroy the world to keep their agenda, the rich will destroy an economy to keep their money, the powerful would destroy an economy and a nation to keep their power.
that is all being played out now, if you look.

I stand by what I've said. I believe most people are basically good.

People can be good and want to fundamentally change something because they never liked what it was and dont like what it is. Hate may be the wrong word, but you dont try to change things you like.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:16 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:I stand by what I've said. I believe most people are basically good.

So do I, but it’s not a numbers game. When it comes to policy or law, one must plan for the bad ones. The good one will never cause problems; the bad ones will always cause problems.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:13 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

Are you so sure or so blind, the left will destroy the world to keep their agenda, the rich will destroy an economy to keep their money, the powerful would destroy an economy and a nation to keep their power.
that is all being played out now, if you look.

I stand by what I've said. I believe most people are basically good.

People can be good and want to fundamentally change something because they never liked what it was and dont like what it is.  Hate may be the wrong word, but you dont try to change things you like.  

Nonsense, when it comes to things like where you live, or where you work, you can like it perfectly fine but still want to improve it.

Have you never looked around your house and thought, This is nice, but it could do with some new furniture and a fresh coat of paint?

Have you never worked for a company where you thought, I really enjoy my job here, but this one stupid thing we do really holds us back?

I'd argue that all politics is about making a better relationship between a nation and its government. That never means accepting everything as it is, not necessarily because of grave problems with the government, but perhaps simply because different generations have different expectations of their government.

It's like you're saying you'd change not a thing about America, or if you would, that means you hate America. Frankly, that's bullshit.

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Post by eddie on Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:18 pm

Quill wrote:

“Do you think theatrics will satisfy the people, or hold the country together?”

Why not? It’s worked for years and years.

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Post by Maddog on Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:37 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

People can be good and want to fundamentally change something because they never liked what it was and dont like what it is.  Hate may be the wrong word, but you dont try to change things you like.  

Nonsense, when it comes to things like where you live, or where you work, you can like it perfectly fine but still want to improve it.

Have you never looked around your house and thought, This is nice, but it could do with some new furniture and a fresh coat of paint?

Have you never worked for a company where you thought, I really enjoy my job here, but this one stupid thing we do really holds us back?

I'd argue that all politics is about making a better relationship between a nation and its government. That never means accepting everything as it is, not necessarily because of grave problems with the government, but perhaps simply because different generations have different expectations of their government.

It's like you're saying you'd change not a thing about America, or if you would, that means you hate America. Frankly, that's bullshit.

You don't know what fundamentally means.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:42 pm

Yes I do, you mean if you want to change your country from its metaphorical foundations, you probably don't like it.

Foundations aren't always sound, though. Sometimes, they need to be strengthened, or the house will fall down.

You should never like a house so much that you won't fix its foundations. You can't say you like the house if you'd rather watch it collapse than fix its foundations.

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Post by Maddog on Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:45 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Yes I do, you mean if you want to change your country from its metaphorical foundations, you probably don't like it.

Foundations aren't always sound, though. Sometimes, they need to be strengthened, or the house will fall down.

You should never like a house so much that you won't fix its foundations. You can't say you like the house if you'd rather watch it collapse than fix its foundations.

Would you like a house with a bad foundation?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:24 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Yes I do, you mean if you want to change your country from its metaphorical foundations, you probably don't like it.

Foundations aren't always sound, though. Sometimes, they need to be strengthened, or the house will fall down.

You should never like a house so much that you won't fix its foundations. You can't say you like the house if you'd rather watch it collapse than fix its foundations.

Would you like a house with a bad foundation?

If I had grown up there, had good memories growing up there, of course I could like a house with a bad foundation.

At which point I would try to fix it.

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Post by Maddog on Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:16 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Would you like a house with a bad foundation?

If I had grown up there, had good memories growing up there, of course I could like a house with a bad foundation.

At which point I would try to fix it.

So put the foundation back to its original place and construction, not blow the house up and build a new one.  

I think everyone knows things need to be .maintained and fixed. But those are not fundamental changes.  

Folks that fundamentally want to change the US generally admit that rhey don't like what it is, nor what it was.  

I'm cool with that honesty.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:22 pm

Well, for one thing, I would not consider the changes I would like to see in America "fundamental" in the first place.

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Post by Maddog on Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:55 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Well, for one thing, I would not consider the changes I would like to see in America "fundamental" in the first place.

I don't think you do either. You're a moderate Democrat that wants to tinker around the edges.

But there are some loud voices to the left of you gaining power. They want to blow it up.

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