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Post by inmyopinion on Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

If you have to be tested to be told you have had a terrible killer virus, It really can't have been all that bad.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:05 am




Not quite...


A bad flu year could kill more than 5% of those it infects...


It is thought that Spanish flu infected 500 million people and killed between 5-10% of those infected by it...


Covid19 death rate is between 0.1-0.5% of those infected by it.



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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:19 am




Covid testing. - Page 4 Crude-CFR



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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:24 am




Click on image above to view all of it.



The more that testing is happening, the more cases are being confirmed, and the death rates are becoming more and more accurate...


Now... When you bear in mind that there are probably at least 10x the number of actual cases than are shown by number of confirmed tested cases... The death rates are miniscule...






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Post by Syl on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:54 am

Tommy Monk wrote:


Not quite...


A bad flu year could kill more than 5% of those it infects...


It is thought that Spanish flu infected 500 million people and killed between 5-10% of those infected by it...


Covid19 death rate is between 0.1-0.5% of those infected by it.


The Spanish flu was the worlds worse pandemic, it's estimated it killed more than 15 million, and like Covid 19, there was no treatment other than asprin.

Thankfully today we do have antibiotics and other treatments that can help ... but till a vacine is discovered  the actual virus cant be stopped by medication..

Covid deaths in UK.... 44,000 in 7 months.

Average annual  flu deaths in UK 17,000

[size=36]"At the time of writing this article in March, [/size][size=36]Public Health England[/size][size=36] told Full Fact it estimated that on average 17,000 people have died from the flu in England annually between 2014/15 and 2018/19 -  with the yearly deaths varying widely from a high of 28,330 in 2014/15 to a low of 1,692 in 2018/19. "[/size]

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:36 am



Your figures state a recent high of just over 28,000 UK flu deaths for one year...


Covid19 has been going around here in UK for 11 months now... With 45,000 listed as deaths from covid19... But a lot of these deaths were listed as covid19 cause just because they had tested positive for this virus, when in reality they were already suffering from serious health conditions that were the main cause of death...



And a really bad flu year, like Spanish flu, would kill 5-10% of those infected by it.


Whereas covid19 death rate is nearer 0.1%... which is pretty much the same as the general mortality rate stated for flu...




Last edited by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:39 am




The 2018/2019 figure your stats include in their short term average is complete b's too...



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Post by Original Quill on Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:02 am

Mortality for COVID-19 appears higher than for influenza, especially seasonal influenza. While the true mortality of COVID-19 will take some time to fully understand, the data we have so far indicate that the crude mortality ratio (the number of reported deaths divided by the reported cases) is between 3-4%, the infection mortality rate (the number of reported deaths divided by the number of infections) will be lower.

For seasonal influenza, mortality is usually well below 0.1%. However, mortality is to a large extent determined by access to and quality of health care.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/q-a-similarities-and-differences-covid-19-and-influenza#:~:text=Mortality%20for%20COVID%2D19,quality%20of%20health%20care.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:19 am




Yes quill... And given that the actual number of cases is likely to be between 10 times and 100 times the recorded positive tested number of cases... Then the real mortality rate (or rather CFR) is between 10x to 100x smaller than the figures given above...


I have vastly overestimated the actual figure by saying between 0.1-0.5%...


When in reality it could be as low as 0.03%.


Whereas flu has been seen for decades... And well established to be around 0.1%.


So... It is pretty clear that covid19 CFR is about the same as flu.




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Post by Original Quill on Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:44 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Yes quill... And given that the actual number of cases is likely to be between 10 times and 100 times the recorded positive tested number of cases... Then the real mortality rate (or rather CFR) is between 10x to 100x smaller than the figures given above...

I have vastly overestimated the actual figure by saying between 0.1-0.5%...

When in reality it could be as low as 0.03%.

Whereas flu has been seen for decades... And well established to be around 0.1%.

So... It is pretty clear that covid19 CFR is about the same as flu.

Meh...I don't think we can guesstimate at this point. Conservative governments have withheld testing, to the point that it is to their detriment. Right now, 225,000 have died from Covid-19 in the US. Has any pandemic, or catastrophe this great ever visited us in the past?

But realization of the whole numbers is staggering enough. It is more than any wars, and we haven't even finished the first wave yet. That is staggering enough when placed into context. We bitch and moan about how deadly the Gulf War was, and come to find out that only 3,300 Americans lost their lives in that conflict. Pffft...that's nothing compared to this.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:55 am



Spanish flu... (Which actually originated in the USA)...

The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States.



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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:58 am




And given that the population of the world was much smaller than today... It was a hell of a lot worse in % numbers ...



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Post by Original Quill on Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:00 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Spanish flu... (Which actually originated in the USA)...

The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States.

I know. It was called Spanish flu because they only recognized it in Spain. It started in an Army camp in Kansas.

But...it is estimated that the US will suffer 6.4 million deaths before we are through. Pretty much dwarfs the flu.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:03 am



Your 6.4 million guesstimate is complete bullshit!



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Post by Syl on Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:51 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Your figures state a recent high of just over 28,000 UK flu deaths for one year...


Covid19 has been going around here in UK for 11 months now... With 45,000 listed as deaths from covid19... But a lot of these deaths were listed as covid19 cause just because they had tested positive for this virus, when in reality they were already suffering from serious health conditions that were the main cause of death...



And a really bad flu year, like Spanish flu, would kill 5-10% of those infected by it.


Whereas covid19 death rate is nearer 0.1%... which is pretty much the same as the general mortality rate stated for flu...



Spanish flu was over 100 years ago.

The average annual flu deaths in the UK taken over recent years is 17,000.
You quoted the high figure when there was a bad flu outbreak....that would be balanced down by a previous year when there was thousands less.


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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:20 pm




I said covid19 death rates are pretty similar to a bad flu year.

Which is correct.

A really bad flu year could kill many more than covid19, as shown by Spanish flu.


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Post by Original Quill on Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:41 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

I said covid19 death rates are pretty similar to a bad flu year.

Which is correct.

A really bad flu year could kill many more than covid19, as shown by Spanish flu.

No, that's false. It only killed that much back in 1918, when it was brand new and they didn't know that much. Today, there's Thera-Flu and such of the like.

But Covid-19 is new, and has caught Republicans/Tories asleep at the wheel. They have always been off-guard, as they refuse to accept responsibility, arguing a kind of quasi-libertarianism: eess not my yob, mon! But this time, with Trump, there was a vicious, concerted effort to do away with public protections, and lo, look what we have. Sickness and disaster everywhere...and from Republicans/Tories...lies, denials and deception everywhere. Covid testing. - Page 4 2190311264

So disappointing, when Obama had everything in place for these maladies, and all Republicans/Tories had to do was hop on and ride, free-of-charge.


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Post by Syl on Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:06 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


I said covid19 death rates are pretty similar to a bad flu year.

Which is correct.

A really bad flu year could kill many more than covid19, as shown by Spanish flu.


When in the UK did a flu kill 45,000 in less than a year Tommy?

Don't bother bringing Spanish flu up again, that was a one off that happened over 100 years ago. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:04 pm




I didn't say exactly the same... And the flu virus kills most of its victims during the few winter months...


And this article from Dec 2018... Talks about 50,000 excess deaths during the previous 17/18 winter...

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/urgent-care/flu-and-cold-weather-contributed-towards-50000-excess-winter-deaths-last-year/



All the recent evidence shows that the actual CFR (mortality rate) from covid19 is pretty much the same as the rate for flu.



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Post by Original Quill on Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:32 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I didn't say exactly the same... And the flu virus kills most of its victims during the few winter months...

And this article from Dec 2018... Talks about 50,000 excess deaths during the previous 17/18 winter...

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/urgent-care/flu-and-cold-weather-contributed-towards-50000-excess-winter-deaths-last-year/

Your article openly admits that conditions have been more severe than in the past, making it an exceptional year:

The increase is thought to be a result of the prevalence of flu last year, alongside ineffectiveness of the flu vaccine and colder than usual temperatures in the 2017/18 winter period, according to the ONS.

One could consider 1918 such an exceptional year, as the flu was a surprise back then too. Now, we have become accustomed to it, and have mitigations in place for it.

Perhaps we shall have such preparations in the future for Covid-19. But the plain fact is, Republican/Tory governments were caught asleep at the wheel by it. The previous Obama administration had shown an acute awareness of the problem, and had set procedures and practices in place to meet it. But, alas, the blind and drunk Republican/Tory administrations dismantled all such preparations, and left us with out public protection.

They are not the strong force they pretend to be. Like cowards, they abandon their posts and flee.

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Post by Syl on Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:43 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


I didn't say exactly the same... And the flu virus kills most of its victims during the few winter months...


And this article from Dec 2018... Talks about 50,000 excess deaths during the previous 17/18 winter...

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/urgent-care/flu-and-cold-weather-contributed-towards-50000-excess-winter-deaths-last-year/



All the recent evidence shows that the actual CFR (mortality rate) from covid19 is pretty much the same as the rate for flu.



No it doesn't.

You do know what 'average' means dont you? Average death from Flu in the UK is 17,000. The article you posted was quoting an EXTREME winter, and the figures include deaths from other illnesses as well as flu.


Your article also points out..."Nick Stripe, health analysis and life events statistician at the ONS, said: ‘Peaks like these are not unusual – we have seen more than eight peaks during the last 40 years."

Which means that the other 32 years out of 40 the figures would be very much lower.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:08 pm




Like I said... Pretty much like a bad flu year...



Here's another snip from an article about another couple of bad flu years...


The 1957 outbreak was not caused by a coronavirus—the first human coronavirus would not be discovered until 1965—but by an influenza virus. However, in 1957, no one could be sure that the virus that had been isolated in Hong Kong was a new pandemic strain or simply a descendant of the previous 1918–19 pandemic influenza virus.


The result was that as the UK's weekly death count mounted, peaking at about 600 in the week ending Oct 17, 1957, there were few hysterical tabloid newspaper headlines and no calls for social distancing. Instead, the news cycle was dominated by the Soviet Union's launch of Sputnik and the aftermath of the fire at the Windscale nuclear reactor in the UK.
By the time this influenza pandemic—known colloquially at the time as “Asian flu”—had concluded the following April, an estimated 20 000 people in the UK and 80 000 citizens in the USA were dead. Worldwide, the pandemic, sparked by a new H2N2 influenza subtype, would result in more than 1 million deaths.
The subsequent 1968 influenza pandemic—or “Hong Kong flu” or “Mao flu” as some western tabloids dubbed it—would have an even more dramatic impact, killing more than 30 000 individuals in the UK and 100 000 people in the USA, with half the deaths among individuals younger than 65 years—the reverse of COVID-19 deaths in the current pandemic. Yet, while at the height of the outbreak in December, 1968, The New York Times described the pandemic as “one of the worst in the nation's history”, there were few school closures and businesses, for the most, continued to operate as normal.
The relative unconcern about two of the largest influenza pandemics of the 20th century—the Encyclopaedia Britannica estimates that the 1968 pandemic, due to an H3N2 influenza virus, was responsible for between 1 million to 4 million deaths globally...

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31201-0/fulltext






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Post by Original Quill on Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:19 pm

You are grouping 6 different pandemic episodes, over 63-years, and comparting that to the single, Covid-19, in the single year 2019-20.  Still, that comparison shows that Covid-19, with 1.1-million deaths, is the champion.

Worldwide:
Total cases: 39M;   Recovered: 26.9M;  Deaths: 1.1M

https://news.google.com/covid19/map?hl=en-US&mid=%2Fm%2F02j71&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:51 pm






No... I was just showing that bad flu years do happen... And everyone just carries on regardless...


And that the CFR of covid19 is pretty much the same as flu.


It is believed that for every covid19 case that needs hospital treatment, there are another actual 100 cases out there in the wider public... So by those numbers... Here in UK we have had around 150,000 people needing hospital treatment who have also tested positive for covid19... So 150,000 X 100 = 15million likely actual cases... Then when you calculate % of deaths out of this number of cases then it works out about 0.3% CFR...


FLU is widely said to be around 0.1% CFR.


I personally believe that there have been many more actual cases than thought in the 100 per 1 needing hospital treatment... Plus it is very well known that many of those who have actually died on the covid19 death number list, actually had very serious medical problems that were far more likely to have been the main cause of death, but are listed as being covid19 deaths anyway, just because they tested positive for the virus, when it was not really the cause.


And... It is also starting to be seen that quite a substantial proportion of tests are giving back a false positive result.


So... When you take all these other factors into consideration... Then the likely CFR is much more like 0.1%... and that is the same CFR as is widely stated for the flu.



I think I have been very clear about what I'm saying and the reasons why.






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Post by inmyopinion on Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:27 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:




No... I was just showing that bad flu years do happen... And everyone just carries on regardless...


And that the CFR of covid19 is pretty much the same as flu.


It is believed that for every covid19 case that needs hospital treatment, there are another actual 100 cases out there in the wider public... So by those numbers... Here in UK we have had around 150,000 people needing hospital treatment who have also tested positive for covid19... So 150,000 X 100 = 15million likely actual cases... Then when you calculate % of deaths out of this number of cases then it works out about 0.3% CFR...


FLU is widely said to be around 0.1% CFR.


I personally believe that there have been many more actual cases than thought in the 100 per 1 needing hospital treatment... Plus it is very well known that many of those who have actually died on the covid19 death number list, actually had very serious medical problems that were far more likely to have been the main cause of death, but are listed as being covid19 deaths anyway, just because they tested positive for the virus, when it was not really the cause.


And... It is also starting to be seen that quite a substantial proportion of tests are giving back a false positive result.


So... When you take all these other factors into consideration... Then the likely CFR is much more like 0.1%... and that is the same CFR as is widely stated for the flu.



I think I have been very clear about what I'm saying and the reasons why.






and we still know of those dying 95% of them had at least one serious underlying illness.

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Post by Victorismyhero on Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:20 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:




No... I was just showing that bad flu years do happen... And everyone just carries on regardless...


And that the CFR of covid19 is pretty much the same as flu.


It is believed that for every covid19 case that needs hospital treatment, there are another actual 100 cases out there in the wider public... So by those numbers... Here in UK we have had around 150,000 people needing hospital treatment who have also tested positive for covid19... So 150,000 X 100 = 15million likely actual cases... Then when you calculate % of deaths out of this number of cases then it works out about 0.3% CFR...


FLU is widely said to be around 0.1% CFR.


I personally believe that there have been many more actual cases than thought in the 100 per 1 needing hospital treatment... Plus it is very well known that many of those who have actually died on the covid19 death number list, actually had very serious medical problems that were far more likely to have been the main cause of death, but are listed as being covid19 deaths anyway, just because they tested positive for the virus, when it was not really the cause.


And... It is also starting to be seen that quite a substantial proportion of tests are giving back a false positive result.


So... When you take all these other factors into consideration... Then the likely CFR is much more like 0.1%... and that is the same CFR as is widely stated for the flu.



I think I have been very clear about what I'm saying and the reasons why.






and we still know of those dying 95% of them had at least one serious underlying illness.

THIS,,is the bullshit "factoid" the idiots rely on, many did indeed have underlying health problems, which in fact had only a tiny chance of causing death in the reasonably close fuyure, things like diabetes, which treated is often if not always a mere pain in the ass, but have diabetes and catch covid.......your chips are fried, in fact diabetes and covid is the leading cause of those "underlying health problem deaths" most if not all of which would likely otherwise had many more good years ahead of them....

Tommy and IMO are outstanding examples of what happens when cretins pretend to understand statistics and medical evidence.

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:24 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

No... I was just showing that bad flu years do happen... And everyone just carries on regardless...

And that the CFR of covid19 is pretty much the same as flu.

It is believed that for every covid19 case that needs hospital treatment, there are another actual 100 cases out there in the wider public... So by those numbers... Here in UK we have had around 150,000 people needing hospital treatment who have also tested positive for covid19... So 150,000 X 100 = 15million likely actual cases... Then when you calculate % of deaths out of this number of cases then it works out about 0.3% CFR...

FLU is widely said to be around 0.1% CFR.

I personally believe that there have been many more actual cases than thought in the 100 per 1 needing hospital treatment... Plus it is very well known that many of those who have actually died on the covid19 death number list, actually had very serious medical problems that were far more likely to have been the main cause of death, but are listed as being covid19 deaths anyway, just because they tested positive for the virus, when it was not really the cause.

And... It is also starting to be seen that quite a substantial proportion of tests are giving back a false positive result.

So... When you take all these other factors into consideration... Then the likely CFR is much more like 0.1%... and that is the same CFR as is widely stated for the flu.

I think I have been very clear about what I'm saying and the reasons why.

and we still know of those dying 95% of them had at least one serious underlying illness.

Well, that's true of terrorism, too. Every single one of the terrorist deaths on 9/11 died also of heart disease, pulmonary illness, strokes or blunt force trauma. Recorded are 2,977 deaths, 265 on the four planes (including the terrorists), 2,606 in the World Trade Center and in the surrounding area, and 125 at the Pentagon.

All of the the 9/11 fatalities had at least one cause of death besides terrorism. Yet we commonly say they died of terrorism. Likewise, a pulmonary illness like Covid-19 merges with other factors to cause death.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:07 am


Don't talk shite quill...


Of course terrorism was the actual main cause of all of those deaths... As all of the injuries and traumas you listed only happened as a direct result of the terrorist incidents and subsequent damage was inflicted...


But it's different when we're talking about someone 80+ years old who already has a string of serious health conditions and who is even themselves surprised that they have managed to live for another day every time they wake up in the morning... And who it is fair to say are already knocking on heaven's door... But if they die after having been tested positive for covid19 then their death is listed as a covid19 death when they were asymptomatic and actually just died from old age and a combination of the other ailments they had...


We know that vast majority who are listed as dying from covid19 were in fact over 75 and already suffering from serious life threatening conditions.




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Post by Syl on Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:19 pm

No doubt many people over 75 who are listed as dying from seasonal flu also die of their long term existing life threatening conditions...but if they have the flu at the time of death that will be on the death certificate.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Don't talk shite quill...

Of course terrorism was the actual main cause of all of those deaths... As all of the injuries and traumas you listed only happened as a direct result of the terrorist incidents and subsequent damage was inflicted...

But it's different when we're talking about someone 80+ years old who already has a string of serious health conditions and who is even themselves surprised that they have managed to live for another day every time they wake up in the morning... And who it is fair to say are already knocking on heaven's door... But if they die after having been tested positive for covid19 then their death is listed as a covid19 death when they were asymptomatic and actually just died from old age and a combination of the other ailments they had...

We know that vast majority who are listed as dying from covid19 were in fact over 75 and already suffering from serious life threatening conditions.

The point is that 9/11 is the same as your argument that Covid-19 victims are also afflicted with other causes. Most all deaths have a variety of causes: as a body weakens from one cause, the other causes gain the upper hand, and it's a race to see which one kills the victim.

Nowhere is this more poignant than with HIV. HIV kills no one, by your analysis. HIV attacks the immune system. By damaging your immune system, HIV interferes with your body's ability to fight other infections and diseases.

HIV destroys CD4 T cells — white blood cells that play a large role in helping your body fight disease. The fewer CD4 T cells you have, the weaker your immune system becomes. When AIDS occurs, your immune system has been severely damaged. You'll be more likely to develop opportunistic infections or opportunistic cancers — diseases that wouldn't usually cause illness in a person with a healthy immune system.

Common infections that accompany AIDS are:

• Pneumocystis pneumonia (PCP). This fungal infection can cause severe illness. Although it's declined significantly with current treatments for HIV/AIDS, in the U.S. PCP is still the most common cause of pneumonia in people infected with HIV.

• Candidiasis (thrush). Candidiasis is a common HIV-related infection. It causes inflammation and a thick, white coating on your mouth, tongue, esophagus or vagina.

• Tuberculosis (TB). In resource-limited nations, TB is the most common opportunistic infection associated with HIV. It's a leading cause of death among people with AIDS.

• Cytomegalovirus. This common herpes virus is transmitted in body fluids such as saliva, blood, urine, semen and breast milk. A healthy immune system inactivates the virus, and it remains dormant in your body. If your immune system weakens, the virus resurfaces — causing damage to your eyes, digestive tract, lungs or other organs.

• Cryptococcal meningitis. Meningitis is an inflammation of the membranes and fluid surrounding your brain and spinal cord (meninges). Cryptococcal meningitis is a common central nervous system infection associated with HIV, caused by a fungus found in soil.

• Toxoplasmosis. This potentially deadly infection is caused by Toxoplasma gondii, a parasite spread primarily by cats. Infected cats pass the parasites in their stools, which may then spread to other animals and humans. Toxoplasmosis can cause heart disease, and seizures occur when it spreads to the brain.

But, by your reasoning, HIV/AIDS is not a danger. These other infections are what kill people with HIV/AIDS.

Even more concerning is your willingness to kill off "80+ years old who already has a string of serious health conditions and who is even themselves surprised that they have managed to live for another day every time they wake up in the morning..." By what right do you choose to 'blow-off' the risk to these people? Yet, by disregarding protocols avoiding transmission of this virus, you are cavalierly sentencing them to death. I gather that you do not have any family members in this risk group.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:06 pm

Syl wrote:No doubt many people over 75 who are listed as dying from seasonal flu also die of their long term existing life threatening conditions...but if they have the flu at the time of death that will be on the death certificate.


True... But there isn't a flu death list that is being used to scare the population and shut down the country...



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Post by Original Quill on Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:27 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:No doubt many people over 75 who are listed as dying from seasonal flu also die of their long term existing life threatening conditions...but if they have the flu at the time of death that will be on the death certificate.


True... But there isn't a flu death list that is being used to scare the population and shut down the country...

Quite simply, the flu is not as deadly as Covid-19. Moreover, we have medications and vaccines with which to manage the flu. With Covid-19, there are simply infinite deaths...which you seem to favor, tommy.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:29 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
Don't talk shite quill...

Of course terrorism was the actual main cause of all of those deaths... As all of the injuries and traumas you listed only happened as a direct result of the terrorist incidents and subsequent damage was inflicted...

But it's different when we're talking about someone 80+ years old who already has a string of serious health conditions and who is even themselves surprised that they have managed to live for another day every time they wake up in the morning... And who it is fair to say are already knocking on heaven's door... But if they die after having been tested positive for covid19 then their death is listed as a covid19 death when they were asymptomatic and actually just died from old age and a combination of the other ailments they had...

We know that vast majority who are listed as dying from covid19 were in fact over 75 and already suffering from serious life threatening conditions.

The point is that 9/11 is the same as your argument that Covid-19 victims are also afflicted with other causes. Most all deaths have a variety of causes: as a body weakens from one cause, the other causes gain the upper hand, and it's a race to see which one kills the victim.

Nowhere is this more poignant than with HIV. HIV kills no one, by your analysis. HIV attacks the immune system. By damaging your immune system, HIV interferes with your body's ability to fight other infections and diseases.

HIV destroys CD4 T cells — white blood cells that play a large role in helping your body fight disease. The fewer CD4 T cells you have, the weaker your immune system becomes. When AIDS occurs, your immune system has been severely damaged. You'll be more likely to develop opportunistic infections or opportunistic cancers — diseases that wouldn't usually cause illness in a person with a healthy immune system.

Common infections that accompany AIDS are:

• Pneumocystis pneumonia (PCP). This fungal infection can cause severe illness. Although it's declined significantly with current treatments for HIV/AIDS, in the U.S. PCP is still the most common cause of pneumonia in people infected with HIV.

• Candidiasis (thrush). Candidiasis is a common HIV-related infection. It causes inflammation and a thick, white coating on your mouth, tongue, esophagus or vagina.

• Tuberculosis (TB). In resource-limited nations, TB is the most common opportunistic infection associated with HIV. It's a leading cause of death among people with AIDS.

• Cytomegalovirus. This common herpes virus is transmitted in body fluids such as saliva, blood, urine, semen and breast milk. A healthy immune system inactivates the virus, and it remains dormant in your body. If your immune system weakens, the virus resurfaces — causing damage to your eyes, digestive tract, lungs or other organs.

• Cryptococcal meningitis. Meningitis is an inflammation of the membranes and fluid surrounding your brain and spinal cord (meninges). Cryptococcal meningitis is a common central nervous system infection associated with HIV, caused by a fungus found in soil.

• Toxoplasmosis. This potentially deadly infection is caused by Toxoplasma gondii, a parasite spread primarily by cats. Infected cats pass the parasites in their stools, which may then spread to other animals and humans. Toxoplasmosis can cause heart disease, and seizures occur when it spreads to the brain.

But, by your reasoning, HIV/AIDS is not a danger. These other infections are what kill people with HIV/AIDS.

Even more concerning is your willingness to kill off "80+ years old who already has a string of serious health conditions and who is even themselves surprised that they have managed to live for another day every time they wake up in the morning..." By what right do you choose to 'blow-off' the risk to these people? Yet, by disregarding protocols avoiding transmission of this virus, you are cavalierly sentencing them to death. I gather that you do not have any family members in this risk group.



Long drawn out waffle...


I understand the point... I'm just trying to bring a bit of perspective...


The fact remains that vast majority were over 75 and had other serious underlying health issues.


Two thirds of those who died were disabled for fucks sake!!!


And I'm not advocating for anyone to be 'killed off'... I'm advocating that the old and vulnerable are protected and the rest of us carry on as normal, bringing about herd immunity as quick as possible, which in turn protects the old and vulnerable and brings an end to all this lockdown lunacy!!!


Because I can tell you that for the vast majority of people, the lockdown/restrictions cure is more damaging than the fukking disease!!!



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Post by Syl on Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:11 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:No doubt many people over 75 who are listed as dying from seasonal flu also die of their long term existing life threatening conditions...but if they have the flu at the time of death that will be on the death certificate.


True... But there isn't a flu death list that is being used to scare the population and shut down the country...



We have vaccines for the various flu's that are expected ...I think that makes a big difference.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:16 pm



But loads of people still die from it every year...


And we don't shut the country down because of it...



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Post by Original Quill on Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:20 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:And I'm not advocating for anyone to be 'killed off'... I'm advocating that the old and vulnerable are protected and the rest of us carry on as normal, bringing about herd immunity as quick as possible, which in turn protects the old and vulnerable and brings an end to all this lockdown lunacy!!!

You can't bifurcate a population. Once again, the RW is forgetting that a virus is a two-pronged attack: the symptoms, and the spread. How do you protect a sub-population from spread?

And this assumes that it is limited to seniors. More-and-more, we are finding that Covid attacks children and middle-aged people.

The virus goes where opportunity invites it. I'm just glad the RW'ers are the ones inviting it in. The White House recently held a super-spreader event, and 9/10's of the participants came down with the virus. Some ended up in the hospital, including Trump.

Keep going, RWers. Keep going. Twisted Evil

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:33 pm




Quote my whole posts if you're going to quote me at all please.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:40 pm




But to answer... I think you'll find that most of the old and vulnerable are already hiding away indoors and being very careful when they do go out anywhere...


All they need to do is just carry on doing this... with extra precautions taken round care homes etc...While everyone else just carries on as normal...


Then herd immunity will quickly be reached and then EVERYONE can get back to normal.


Because at the moment, all that we're doing is hurting everyone with the lockdown/restriction lunacy and prolonging the misery while we keep the virus in perpetuity!



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Post by Original Quill on Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:44 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


Quote my whole posts if you're going to quote me at all please.

No...request denied. It is in fact my post, and I won't be dictated to in my own post.

Actually, eliminating nonsensical verbiage is an effort to go directly to the point, never mind all the adjectives and fru-fru that people put in posts. It's easier on the reader, since they likely have already read your post already. It leads to linear-debate, and is the most efficient way to proceed.

If you are misquoted, you will have the occasion to respond and point that out.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:50 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:But to answer... I think you'll find that most of the old and vulnerable are already hiding away indoors and being very careful when they do go out anywhere...

All they need to do is just carry on doing this... with extra precautions taken round care homes etc...While everyone else just carries on as normal...

You want to legislate for them?

Tommy Monk wrote:Then herd immunity will quickly be reached and then EVERYONE can get back to normal.

Because at the moment, all that we're doing is hurting everyone with the lockdown/restriction lunacy and prolonging the misery while we keep the virus in perpetuity!

Right now, there is no immunity. People are cropping up who had the virus back in April and May, and now have it again. Nice idea...back to the lab.

We're all in this together. It isn't us against the old guys. You are just selecting who you would like to die. Heard from Hitler lately?

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Post by Syl on Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:51 pm

People have strong views, but personally I think there is no complete answer to the problem...and till a vaccine is found there wont be.

Mental health, poverty, obviously the economy is suffering greatly, but then people don't wont to die, or recover only to be left with debilitating illnesses (long Covid19 ) because they caught a rampaging virus that was striking down millions of people globally.
And it will be millions globally (albeit mainly the old and vulnerable) if herd immunity is the way it will be handled in the near future


Last edited by Syl on Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:51 pm


You are effectively misquoting me by missing out the rest of my post... As you are removing the whole context.


Why can't you just quote the whole of my post and just highlight the bit that you are addressing?


You could easily make the bit bold or underlined or even a different colour, so that it stands out.



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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:03 pm

Syl wrote:People have strong views, but personally I think there is no complete answer to the problem...and till a vaccine is found there wont be.

Mental health, poverty, obviously the economy is suffering greatly, but then people don't wont to die, or recover only to be left with debilitating illnesses (long Covid19 ) because they caught a rampaging virus that was striking down millions of people globally.
And it will be millions globally (albeit mainly the old and vulnerable) if herd immunity is the way it will be handled in the near future



I've had the virus and recovered 100%... I'm suffering a hell of a lot more from this so called cure of lockdown and restrictions.


I read another statistic the other day that there are about 300,000 cancer screening referrals that haven't happened over the last 6 months too... As well as the devestating effects on people's mental health and worry/anxiety levels and financial hardship.


It is lunacy to have a cure that is worse than the disease.



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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:But to answer... I think you'll find that most of the old and vulnerable are already hiding away indoors and being very careful when they do go out anywhere...

All they need to do is just carry on doing this... with extra precautions taken round care homes etc...While everyone else just carries on as normal...

You want to legislate for them?

Tommy Monk wrote:Then herd immunity will quickly be reached and then EVERYONE can get back to normal.

Because at the moment, all that we're doing is hurting everyone with the lockdown/restriction lunacy and prolonging the misery while we keep the virus in perpetuity!

Right now, there is no immunity. People are cropping up who had the virus back in April and May, and now have it again. Nice idea...back to the lab.

We're all in this together. It isn't us against the old guys. You are just selecting who you would like to die. Heard from Hitler lately?



While it is true that most of the deaths have been over 75s with serious illnesses... It is not true that all over 75s who get it are going to die from it... The overwhelming vast majority of over 75s who get it don't die from it.



Another stat I heard the other day was something like... if you are under 45 then you've got more chance of dying from being struck by lightning... And 40-60 you've got more chance of dying in a road accident...



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Post by Vintage on Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:04 pm

A fitness influencer Dimitri Stuzhuk (never heard of him but I'm not fit) aged 33 years who denied covid 19 existed has died of it. He tried to set the record straight when he first caught it, he was released from hospital but became so ill again he had to be re hospitalised but ended up with heart complications which killed him. Take it seriously folks, just be glad you either haven't caught it or have successfully recovered many aren't as lucky as you.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:15 pm

Vintage wrote:A fitness influencer Dimitri Stuzhuk (never heard of him but I'm not fit) aged 33 years who denied covid 19 existed has died of it. He tried to set the record straight when he first caught it, he was released from hospital but became so ill again he had to be re hospitalised but ended up with heart complications which killed him. Take it seriously folks, just be glad you either haven't caught it or have successfully recovered many aren't as lucky as you.


He died of heart problems... There is talk that he was a user of anabolic steroids which are more likely the cause...



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Post by Original Quill on Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You want to legislate for them?  



Right now, there is no immunity.  People are cropping up who had the virus back in April and May, and now have it again.  Nice idea...back to the lab.

We're all in this together.  It isn't us against the old guys.  You are just selecting who you would like to die.  Heard from Hitler lately?

While it is true that most of the deaths have been over 75s with serious illnesses... It is not true that all over 75s who get it are going to die from it... The overwhelming vast majority of over 75s who get it don't die from it.

Another stat I heard the other day was something like... if you are under 45 then you've got more chance of dying from being struck by lightning... And 40-60 you've got more chance of dying in a road accident...

But it is a condition-precedent that you get the virus in order to die of the virus, right?  Now, there have been 240,000 people who have died with the virus in the US, and 1.11-million who have died with the virus worldwide.

I guess there's something dangerous about that virus.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

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“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:12 pm

Overwhelming vast majority were over 75 and had other serious health issues.


500,000 people a year die here in the UK from all manner of things.



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Post by Original Quill on Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:25 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Overwhelming vast majority were over 75 and had other serious health issues.

500,000 people a year die here in the UK from all manner of things.

Hitler wanted to kill the Jews. You want to kill the elderly.

There are many of us who don't want anybody to die...and are concerned to keep people alive.

Covid testing. - Page 4 2190311264

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:35 pm





You want to kill everybody else...



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“Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.” — Isaac Newton

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:47 pm

Nonsense. The alternative is to take measures to prevent spread.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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