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Post by Maddog on Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:06 pm




What could it hurt?

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:57 pm

Yeah. Get moral government out of the way, so we can start a totalitarian dictatorship for me, and well...me.

Fact is, that libertarianism is anarchy. Without superseding moral rules, anarchists will eliminate other contenders, and elimination of others leaves only the…well, me.

Think of it in economic/market terms. Any kind of unrestrained competitiveness eventually leads to hostile competition—mergers, buy-outs and hostile takeovers—thus reducing and eventually eliminating the market of competition. Thus: Libertarianism --> monopoly.

In political terms, it’s Libertarianism --> totalitarian monopoly of the political market, or dictatorship. Libertarians paint it as life in the lap of utopian luxury. But do you really think those buggers are sitting around enjoying the beach and sun? Get real. They are out to get the upper hand, and in politics that means dictatorship.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:24 pm

Original Quill wrote:Yeah.  Get moral government out of the way, so we can start a totalitarian dictatorship for me, and well...me.

Fact is, that libertarianism is anarchy.  Without superseding moral rules, anarchists will eliminate other contenders, and elimination of others leaves only the…well, me.

Think of it in economic/market terms.  Any kind of unrestrained competitiveness eventually leads to hostile competition—mergers, buy-outs and hostile takeovers—thus reducing and eventually eliminating the market of competition.  Thus: Libertarianism --> monopoly.

In political terms, it’s Libertarianism --> totalitarian monopoly of the political market, or dictatorship.  Libertarians paint it as life in the lap of utopian luxury.  But do you really think those buggers are sitting around enjoying the beach and sun?  Get real.  They are out to get the upper hand, and in politics that means dictatorship.

Then I guess letting her speak won't be a problem then will it?

Then people can decide for themselves what it means.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:40 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Yeah.  Get moral government out of the way, so we can start a totalitarian dictatorship for me, and well...me.

Fact is, that libertarianism is anarchy.  Without superseding moral rules, anarchists will eliminate other contenders, and elimination of others leaves only the…well, me.

Think of it in economic/market terms.  Any kind of unrestrained competitiveness eventually leads to hostile competition—mergers, buy-outs and hostile takeovers—thus reducing and eventually eliminating the market of competition.  Thus: Libertarianism --> monopoly.

In political terms, it’s Libertarianism --> totalitarian monopoly of the political market, or dictatorship.  Libertarians paint it as life in the lap of utopian luxury.  But do you really think those buggers are sitting around enjoying the beach and sun?  Get real.  They are out to get the upper hand, and in politics that means dictatorship.

Then I guess letting her speak won't be a problem then will it?

Then people can decide for themselves what it means.

We are way beyond that. She has spoken...and been refuted. Everyone has seen what anarchy brings. In the gilded age, it was attempts to bring markets down to monopoly. Charles Manson appropriately, if evilly called it 'Helter-Skelter'.

Next?

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:22 pm

Then why are Biden and Trump debating?

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:56 pm

Anything to add about libertarianism, the utopia that leads to a dictatorship?

If not, this thread is dead.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:20 pm

Original Quill wrote:Anything to add about libertarianism, the utopia that leads to a dictatorship?

If not, this thread is dead.

This thread is about the debates you fucking idiot.

Guess you didn't watch the video.

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Post by Victorismyhero on Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:53 pm

what price freedom of speech and opinion?

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:01 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Anything to add about libertarianism, the utopia that leads to a dictatorship?

If not, this thread is dead.

This thread is about the debates you fucking idiot.

Guess you didn't watch the video.

The video is as irrational as you. I've watched it, and a million other libertarian sales pitches, and they always end at the land of milk and honey. It's always freedom, bliss and utopia, without peeking behind the curtain to see what's next?

I'll tell you what is next...it is certain men behaving badly, acting with dishonesty, and raping or cheating their way into wealth and power. Throw in an occasional Church, a Henry VIII, a Stalin, a Hitler or Trump, for flavor, and we've got another stew. And then we go through another cycle of oppression, awakening and the need for rules.

Better a liberal democracy, with structure, foresight and laws. I don't trust you or your kind. Evil or Very Mad

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:40 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

This thread is about the debates you fucking idiot.

Guess you didn't watch the video.  

The video is as irrational as you.  I've watched it, and a million other libertarian sales pitches, and they always end at the land of milk and honey.  It's always freedom, bliss and utopia, without peeking behind the curtain to see what's next?

I'll tell you what is next...it is certain men behaving badly, acting with dishonesty, and raping or cheating their way into wealth and power.  Throw in an occasional Church, a Henry VIII, a Stalin, a Hitler or Trump, for flavor, and we've got another stew.  And then we go through another cycle of oppression, awakening and the need for rules.  

Better a liberal democracy, with structure, foresight and laws.  I don't trust you or your kind.   Evil or Very Mad

It's about letting her debate the two old white guys.

What are you afraid of?

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:19 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The video is as irrational as you. I've watched it, and a million other libertarian sales pitches, and they always end at the land of milk and honey. It's always freedom, bliss and utopia, without peeking behind the curtain to see what's next?

I'll tell you what is next...it is certain men behaving badly, acting with dishonesty, and raping or cheating their way into wealth and power. Throw in an occasional Church, a Henry VIII, a Stalin, a Hitler or Trump, for flavor, and we've got another stew. And then we go through another cycle of oppression, awakening and the need for rules.

Better a liberal democracy, with structure, foresight and laws. I don't trust you or your kind. Evil or Very Mad

It's about letting her debate the two old white guys.

What are you afraid of?

I’ve got nothing against her speaking out. But she doesn’t appear to want to. Jo Jorgensen is telling you what she doesn’t like.

She’s the Libertarian candidate for president. I'm still not hearing an answer regarding her beliefs...libertarianism gets to Xanadu, and then what happens? I lov debates about economic or political theory. But I'm not hearing any.

I'll tell you why. Libertarianism gets to near total freedom, and people then look around and say, I want more status. Status is a zero-sum game: someone has to lose in order for someone to gain. If, as libertarians often do, someone wants total status, others must have totalitarian loses. You see what I'm getting at...nothing is as unstable as pure libertarianism.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:42 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's about letting her debate the two old white guys.

What are you afraid of?

I’ve got nothing against her speaking out.  But she doesn’t appear to want to.  

Nothing could be further from the truth. She's been adamant about her desire to be in the debates.


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Post by Original Quill on Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:58 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I’ve got nothing against her speaking out.  But she doesn’t appear to want to.  

Nothing could be further from the truth. She's been adamant about her desire to be in the debates.

Well, I would love to hear her--anyone--debate libertarianism, particularly to answer the question of why it always ends up as its opposite...totalitarianism. Like I said, always at the point of Xanadu they stop, and never explain the backside (slide?) ride.

Very much like Marxism, another utopian vision that never comes out right.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:42 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Nothing could be further from the truth. She's been adamant about her desire to be in the debates.

Well, I would love to hear her--anyone--debate libertarianism, particularly to answer the question of why it always ends up as its opposite...totalitarianism.  Like I said, always at the point of Xanadu they stop, and never explain the backside (slide?) ride.

Very much like Marxism, another utopian vision that never comes out right.

Maybe those gigantic pieces of shit named Biden and Trump will agree with you.
I doubt it though. She would wipe the floor with then.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:25 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Well, I would love to hear her--anyone--debate libertarianism, particularly to answer the question of why it always ends up as its opposite...totalitarianism.  Like I said, always at the point of Xanadu they stop, and never explain the backside (slide?) ride.

Very much like Marxism, another utopian vision that never comes out right.

Maybe those gigantic pieces of shit named Biden and Trump will agree with you.  
I doubt it though. She would wipe the floor with then.  

Biden might.  I don't care.  The one I'm voting for is Harris.

Elections are not hostile competitions, tho Trump would wish they were firing squads. I'm not interested in whose floor she would wash, I want to hear hear her ideas.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:19 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Maybe those gigantic pieces of shit named Biden and Trump will agree with you.  
I doubt it though. She would wipe the floor with then.  

Biden might.  I don't care.  The one I'm voting for is Harris.

Elections are not hostile competitions, tho Trump would wish they were firing squads.  I'm not interested in whose floor she would wash, I want to hear hear her ideas.

It's easy to hear her ideas. Especially with the internet

I'm not a fan of debates, but if you exclude 1 of the 3 candidates on every ballot, you delegitimize them.

Some how the Dems and Reps could have debates with 10 people, many of which never had a chance.

But now 3 is too fucking difficult?

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:42 pm

Well, she has yet to express any positive ideas. She doesn't like Trump or Biden...what else is new? Rolling Eyes Other than her party affiliation, she seems to be an empty vessel.

Republicans are dead, supporters of organized crime. Democrats are feckless wimps. Time for some new, serious party realignment ... unless voters want to see the nation go under.

The country has some serious internal problems, and the physicians seem unable, or too scared to operate. Unless we get some new physicians, we are in serious trouble.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:47 pm

Original Quill wrote:Well, she has yet to express any positive ideas.  She doesn't like Trump or Biden...what else is new?   Rolling Eyes   Other than her party affiliation, she seems to be an empty vessel.

Republicans are dead, supporters of organized crime.  Democrats are feckless wimps.  Time for some new, serious party realignment ... unless voters want to see the nation go under.

The country has some serious internal problems, and the physicians seem unable, or too scared to operate.  Unless we get some new physicians, we are in serious trouble.

She has expressed plenty of ideas. You just live in your echo chamber.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:06 pm

In the clip, all Jorgensen says is that she doesn't like Trump or Biden.  Did I miss anything?  If so, please fill us in.

[pause]

The fact that you don't fill us in, is tacit admission that (at least in your clip) there is no more.  This is your problem: you're all full of fight, and you can't wait to hurl slurs, but apparently you have nothing to fight for??

Could this intellectual silence come from eons of southerners fighting for slavery, but not wanting to discuss the morality of it?  Let's deflect and turn it into a discussion of states’ rights, or libertarianism?  Because, god knows, we southerners would lose in a debate over the righteousness of turning human beings into beasts of burden.

This is the problem.  Southerners avoid moral principles like the plague.  They have the habit of gnawing and knit-picking around a subject, but never getting to the essential moral question.  You’ve fallen into that habit pattern, even when the subject is not slavery, or its son-in-law, racism.

It’s unfortunate, because you are denying the rest of the members of the forum the benefit of probably the most meaningful debate of our day.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:22 pm

Original Quill wrote:In the clip, all Jorgensen says is that she doesn't like Trump or Biden.  Did I miss anything?  If so, please fill us in.

[pause]

The fact that you don't fill us in, is tacit admission that (at least in your clip) there is no more.  This is your problem: you're all full of fight, and you can't wait to hurl slurs, but apparently you have nothing to fight for??

Could this intellectual silence come from eons of southerners fighting for slavery, but not wanting to discuss the morality of it?  Let's deflect and turn it into a discussion of states’ rights, or libertarianism?  Because, god knows, we southerners would lose in a debate over the righteousness of turning human beings into beasts of burden.

This is the problem.  Southerners avoid moral principles like the plague.  They have the habit of gnawing and knit-picking around a subject, but never getting to the essential moral question.  You’ve fallen into that habit pattern, even when the subject is not slavery, or its son-in-law, racism.

It’s unfortunate, because you are denying the rest of the members of the forum the benefit of probably the most meaningful debate of our day.

The clip is about letting her debate.

The other members are to discuss anything they would like with me and I will remain polite to them.

You, I will at my discretion, based on your level of duplicity in your posts.

You seem to think I can't tolerate your positions. It's actually your Trump like avoidance of the truth and blatant fabrications.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:33 pm

Maddog wrote:The clip is about letting her debate.

And then she fails in her mission. Go figure...

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:40 pm

Maddog wrote:You seem to think I can't tolerate your positions.

I think you are afraid.  I believe you know your own intellectual limitations, and cower away from any discussion over libertarianism.

How are you going to sell it, if you can't even speak it?

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:You seem to think I can't tolerate your positions.

I think you are afraid.  I believe you know your own intellectual limitations, and cower away from any discussion over libertarianism.

How are you going to sell it, if you can't even speak it?

You can think anything you like.

I'll have an honest discussion with anyone else. You're not capable. I'll simply bide my time reminding you of that. Sorry you have to own fabrications.

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The policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
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Post by Original Quill on Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:37 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I think you are afraid.  I believe you know your own intellectual limitations, and cower away from any discussion over libertarianism.

How are you going to sell it, if you can't even speak it?

You can think anything you like.  

I'll have an honest discussion with anyone else. You're not capable. I'll simply bide my time reminding you of that.  Sorry you have to own fabrications.

You're not capable. You seem to devote all your effort to avoiding it.

Ahh well...libertarianism is indefensible anyway.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:31 am


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Post by Original Quill on Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:45 am

Maddog wrote:

Give everyone what they want. Legalize drugs. Criminals get out of jail. Soldiers abandon their posts. Cops are imprisoned. Falling prices for health. Don't pay taxes. Everyone can do what they want. It's all free, free, free...

Until Covid-19 comes along, then you can all fall down.

Ring-a-ring-a-roses,
A pocket full of posies,
A-tishoo! A-tishoo!
We all fall down.

The verse is all about the Great Plague: the roses are a euphemism for deadly rashes; the posies are herbs, a supposed preventative measure; the a-tishoos pertain to sneezing symptoms; and the implication of everyone falling down is…well, death.

How timely is Jo Jorgensen? Everyone is free to do what they want. Dope in everyone's pockets. Unlicensed snake-oil salesmen faking their vaccines. Falling drug prices, until the capitalists see how much profit can be made ripping people off. Soldiers coming home just in time to watch sissy die.

How does your freedom feel when your kids are dead? Such a good deal…libertarianism.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:04 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Give everyone what they want.  Legalize drugs.  Criminals get out of jail.  Soldiers abandon their posts.  Cops are imprisoned.  Falling prices for health.  Don't pay taxes.  Everyone can do what they want.  It's all free, free, free...

Until Covid-19 comes along, then you can all fall down.

Ring-a-ring-a-roses,
A pocket full of posies,
A-tishoo! A-tishoo!
We all fall down.

The verse is all about the Great Plague:  the roses are a euphemism for deadly rashes; the posies are herbs, a supposed preventative measure; the a-tishoos pertain to sneezing symptoms; and the implication of everyone falling down is…well, death.

How timely is Jo Jorgensen?  Everyone is free to do what they want.  Dope in everyone's pockets.  Unlicensed snake-oil salesmen faking their vaccines.  Falling drug prices, until the capitalists see how much profit can be made ripping people off.  Soldiers coming home just in time to watch sissy die.

How does your freedom feel when your kids are dead?  Such a good deal…libertarianism.

Drugs use shouldn't be punished by jail time. I have news for you, the war on drugs is over and the drugs won.

Criminals who are actually a threat do not get out of jail. People who had the wrong plant will.

Soldiers will have posts here. They don't need to be messing around in foreign countries.

Falling prices for healthcare is good.

There will still be plenty of taxes to pay, don't worry.

Now, I may continue this conversation. If you continue with your fabrications I'll go into Lurker mode and just post memes and discuss matters with other posters who don't make things up.

Your call.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:50 pm

You're arguing platform details, when what we want to know is how libertarian ideology results in positive changes?  Only two issues of the platform are germane…and illustrative:

1.  There are many problems that are social: Revelations identifies three...war, pestilence, and famine.  How does libertarianism, which stresses individual, non-government action, deal with problems of a social nature?  For example, if there is a war, does each individual raise an individual army?  If there is a pandemic, where social spread is the concern, how is it combatted it if only individual action is offered?  If food or water is scarce, or pollutants spoil the air we breathe, how does individual action solve the problem?

2.  How does libertarianism create falling prices (as Jorgensen argues), when in reality it induces a monopoly?  Individualism foments hostile competition.  The natural result of hostile competition is to eliminate competitors (hostile take-overs; buy-outs; mergers, etc.).  Elimination of competitors tends to reduce markets to a monopoly.  Monopolies raise prices.

It seems that libertarianism tends toward a disequilibrium or some kind of instability, which then inevitably resolves itself into some form of stasis.  When the very stasis is antagonistic to any sort of communal solution, it forces only one form of answer: a monopoly in economics, or a dictatorship in politics.  We’ve already experienced that tendency in economics, during the gilded age, where individuals tried to ‘corner the market’.

Ergo: a theory based upon individualism and competition, results in a monolith, with only one (or a few) individual(s) succeeding.  Libertarianism, as a social solution, is a contradiction.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:03 pm

Original Quill wrote:You're arguing platform details, when what we want to know is how libertarian ideology results in positive changes?  Only two issues of the platform are germane…and illustrative:

1.  There are many problems that are social: Revelations identifies three...war, pestilence, and famine.  How does libertarianism, which stresses individual, non-government action, deal with problems of a social nature?  For example, if there is a war, does each individual raise an individual army?  If there is a pandemic, where social spread is the concern, how is it combatted it if only individual action is offered?  If food or water is scarce, or pollutants spoil the air we breathe, how does individual action solve the problem?

2.  How does libertarianism create falling prices (as Jorgensen argues), when in reality it induces a monopoly?  Individualism foments hostile competition.  The natural result of hostile competition is to eliminate competitors (hostile take-overs; buy-outs; mergers, etc.).  Elimination of competitors tends to reduce markets to a monopoly.  Monopolies raise prices.

It seems that libertarianism tends toward a disequilibrium or some kind of instability, which then inevitably resolves itself into some form of stasis.  When the very stasis is antagonistic to any sort of communal solution, it forces only one form of answer: a monopoly in economics, or a dictatorship in politics.  We’ve already experienced that tendency in economics, during the gilded age, where individuals tried to ‘corner the market’.

Ergo: a theory based upon individualism and competition, results in a monolith, with only one (or a few) individual(s) succeeding.  Libertarianism, as a social solution, is a contradiction.

Have you read the Libertarian Party platform?

Were not talking about anarchy here.

Were talking about having a much smaller, functioning government, that protects people from each other.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:04 pm

Original Quill wrote:You're arguing platform details, when what we want to know is how libertarian ideology results in positive changes?  Only two issues of the platform are germane…and illustrative:

1.  There are many problems that are social: Revelations identifies three...war, pestilence, and famine.  How does libertarianism, which stresses individual, non-government action, deal with problems of a social nature?  For example, if there is a war, does each individual raise an individual army?  If there is a pandemic, where social spread is the concern, how is it combatted it if only individual action is offered?  If food or water is scarce, or pollutants spoil the air we breathe, how does individual action solve the problem?

2.  How does libertarianism create falling prices (as Jorgensen argues), when in reality it induces a monopoly?  Individualism foments hostile competition.  The natural result of hostile competition is to eliminate competitors (hostile take-overs; buy-outs; mergers, etc.).  Elimination of competitors tends to reduce markets to a monopoly.  Monopolies raise prices.

It seems that libertarianism tends toward a disequilibrium or some kind of instability, which then inevitably resolves itself into some form of stasis.  When the very stasis is antagonistic to any sort of communal solution, it forces only one form of answer: a monopoly in economics, or a dictatorship in politics.  We’ve already experienced that tendency in economics, during the gilded age, where individuals tried to ‘corner the market’.

Ergo: a theory based upon individualism and competition, results in a monolith, with only one (or a few) individual(s) succeeding.  Libertarianism, as a social solution, is a contradiction.

And why the weird fonts on this post?

Did you copy and paste it?

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Post by Maddog on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:14 pm

3.1 National Defense

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.

https://www.lp.org/platform/

There will be an adequate military strong enough to fulfill it's constitutional roles, without meddling in foreign affairs and bankrupting the nation.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:32 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:You're arguing platform details, when what we want to know is how libertarian ideology results in positive changes?  Only two issues of the platform are germane…and illustrative:

1.  There are many problems that are social: Revelations identifies three...war, pestilence, and famine.  How does libertarianism, which stresses individual, non-government action, deal with problems of a social nature?  For example, if there is a war, does each individual raise an individual army?  If there is a pandemic, where social spread is the concern, how is it combatted it if only individual action is offered?  If food or water is scarce, or pollutants spoil the air we breathe, how does individual action solve the problem?

2.  How does libertarianism create falling prices (as Jorgensen argues), when in reality it induces a monopoly?  Individualism foments hostile competition.  The natural result of hostile competition is to eliminate competitors (hostile take-overs; buy-outs; mergers, etc.).  Elimination of competitors tends to reduce markets to a monopoly.  Monopolies raise prices.

It seems that libertarianism tends toward a disequilibrium or some kind of instability, which then inevitably resolves itself into some form of stasis.  When the very stasis is antagonistic to any sort of communal solution, it forces only one form of answer: a monopoly in economics, or a dictatorship in politics.  We’ve already experienced that tendency in economics, during the gilded age, where individuals tried to ‘corner the market’.

Ergo: a theory based upon individualism and competition, results in a monolith, with only one (or a few) individual(s) succeeding.  Libertarianism, as a social solution, is a contradiction.

Have you read the Libertarian Party platform?

Yes, but as I point out, the platform is candy for kids.  It is essential to get at the fundamental principles of the ideology.  It is generally contained in a book by David Boaz, titled The Libertarian Mind (New York: Simon & Schuster, 2015); also, www​.lib​er​tar​i​an​ism​.org.  The CATO Institute has a number of sites on the subject.

If you want an objective, independent view, try reading any post-imperialist economic texts.  Especially good are books by George Lichtheim on economic history: The Concept of Ideology, And Other Essays (1967); Imperialism (1971); Europe in the Twentieth Century (1972); and Thoughts Among the Ruins: Collected essays on Europe and beyond (1973). One particularly good, and succinct essay is: THE MYTH OF ANARCHIST LIBERTARIANISM. https://sa.org.au/marxism_page/intros/socfrombel/sfb_3.htm


Last edited by Original Quill on Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:28 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:50 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:You're arguing platform details, when what we want to know is how libertarian ideology results in positive changes?  Only two issues of the platform are germane…and illustrative:

1.  There are many problems that are social: Revelations identifies three...war, pestilence, and famine.  How does libertarianism, which stresses individual, non-government action, deal with problems of a social nature?  For example, if there is a war, does each individual raise an individual army?  If there is a pandemic, where social spread is the concern, how is it combatted it if only individual action is offered?  If food or water is scarce, or pollutants spoil the air we breathe, how does individual action solve the problem?

2.  How does libertarianism create falling prices (as Jorgensen argues), when in reality it induces a monopoly?  Individualism foments hostile competition.  The natural result of hostile competition is to eliminate competitors (hostile take-overs; buy-outs; mergers, etc.).  Elimination of competitors tends to reduce markets to a monopoly.  Monopolies raise prices.

It seems that libertarianism tends toward a disequilibrium or some kind of instability, which then inevitably resolves itself into some form of stasis.  When the very stasis is antagonistic to any sort of communal solution, it forces only one form of answer: a monopoly in economics, or a dictatorship in politics.  We’ve already experienced that tendency in economics, during the gilded age, where individuals tried to ‘corner the market’.

Ergo: a theory based upon individualism and competition, results in a monolith, with only one (or a few) individual(s) succeeding.  Libertarianism, as a social solution, is a contradiction.

And why the weird fonts on this post?

Did you copy and paste it?

It's the same font. Forumotion recently reduced the size of fonts to save space, so I kick the font up a couple of sizes to make it readable.

Why would I cut & paste, when I write the books. Wink

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:59 pm

Maddog wrote:3.1 National Defense

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.

https://www.lp.org/platform/

There will be an adequate military strong enough to fulfill it's constitutional roles, without meddling in foreign affairs and bankrupting the nation.  

So, let me get this straight...libertarianism resorts to collective principles whenever it wants to get things done?  A-hah...that's the very contradiction I was mentioning.

Why not just eliminate any pretense at individualism, and embrace some form of collectivism.  All political problems are social in one form or other.  Anything you have to do militarily, is the same kind of thing you have to do with any social problem.  Just accept it, and drop the 17th-century rhetoric.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:10 pm

Libertarianism suffers from the same problems as many other -isms, especially communism.

You could set up a thriving libertarian or communist utopia if you could do impossible things: 1) make the community totally independent from the rest of the world and 2) make sure every last member of the community believed whole-heartedly in libertarianism, or communism.

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Post by eddie on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:21 pm

I have no idea who she is and I’m not interested in political agendas.

I say, let her speak. Let anyone speak...otherwise it’s the same old voices doing the talking.

So...let her speak. Isn’t that what the thread is about? Free speech? #letherspeak 2190311264

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:30 pm

I do think she should be allowed in the debate, though. Put her views out there in the free market of ideas and see whether they succeed or fail. Wink

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Post by eddie on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:35 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:I do think she should be allowed in the debate, though. Put her views out there in the free market of ideas and see whether they succeed or fail. Wink

That’s really my point. Let her speak. Let them all speak!!! cheers

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Post by Maddog on Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:09 am

eddie wrote:I have no idea who she is and I’m not interested in political agendas.

I say, let her speak. Let anyone speak...otherwise it’s the same old voices doing the talking.

So...let her speak. Isn’t that what the thread is about? Free speech? #letherspeak 2190311264

There are 3 people on every ballot in the US. Only two will be allowed to debate, because the two major parties control the debates. Obviously, not everyone can be in the debates. But I think everyone that has qualified to be on every ballot should be. That's 3 people and Jo is one of them.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:12 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:3.1 National Defense

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.

https://www.lp.org/platform/

There will be an adequate military strong enough to fulfill it's constitutional roles, without meddling in foreign affairs and bankrupting the nation.  

So, let me get this straight...libertarianism resorts to collective principles whenever it wants to get things done?  A-hah...that's the very contradiction I was mentioning.

Why not just eliminate any pretense at individualism, and embrace some form of collectivism.  All political problems are social in one form or other.  Anything you have to do militarily, is the same kind of thing you have to do with any social problem.  Just accept it, and drop the 17th-century rhetoric.

Again, libertarianism isn't the same as anarchy.

At least not as practiced by the Libertarian Party in the US.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:14 am

Ben Reilly wrote:Libertarianism suffers from the same problems as many other -isms, especially communism.

You could set up a thriving libertarian or communist utopia if you could do impossible things: 1) make the community totally independent from the rest of the world and 2) make sure every last member of the community believed whole-heartedly in libertarianism, or communism.

The libertarian platform is basically the same as the classic liberals that formed the US (and the UK to a degree). We just through out slavery and ill treatment of women. It's not some crazy idea that hasn't been tried, or hasn't worked.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:21 am

eddie wrote:I have no idea who she is and I’m not interested in political agendas.

I say, let her speak. Let anyone speak...otherwise it’s the same old voices doing the talking.

So...let her speak. Isn’t that what the thread is about? Free speech? #letherspeak 2190311264

Of course. She chooses not speak, engaging rather in more mundane political rhetoric...giving all things to all people. What politician doesn't do that? Phffft...

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:24 am

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:I have no idea who she is and I’m not interested in political agendas.

I say, let her speak. Let anyone speak...otherwise it’s the same old voices doing the talking.

So...let her speak. Isn’t that what the thread is about? Free speech? #letherspeak 2190311264

There are 3 people on every ballot in the US. Only two will be allowed to debate, because the two major parties control the debates. Obviously, not everyone can be in the debates. But I think everyone that has qualified to be on every ballot should be. That's 3 people and Jo is one of them.  

The answer's simple. Hold your own debate, and see who shows up. Don't you believe in natural selection?

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:26 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

So, let me get this straight...libertarianism resorts to collective principles whenever it wants to get things done?  A-hah...that's the very contradiction I was mentioning.

Why not just eliminate any pretense at individualism, and embrace some form of collectivism.  All political problems are social in one form or other.  Anything you have to do militarily, is the same kind of thing you have to do with any social problem.  Just accept it, and drop the 17th-century rhetoric.

Again, libertarianism isn't the same as anarchy.

At least not as practiced by the Libertarian Party in the US.

It's one thing to say that, but quite another to prove it. Not only have I not seen the proof, but I've not seen an attempt at any distinction.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:55 am

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Libertarianism suffers from the same problems as many other -isms, especially communism.

You could set up a thriving libertarian or communist utopia if you could do impossible things: 1) make the community totally independent from the rest of the world and 2) make sure every last member of the community believed whole-heartedly in libertarianism, or communism.

The libertarian platform is basically the same as the classic liberals that formed the US (and the UK to a degree). We just through out slavery and ill treatment of women. It's not some crazy idea that hasn't been tried, or hasn't worked.

Yes, it has been tried. For 400-years libertarianism has been tried and failed...and it keeps on failing. We started out with it as our default political theory.

Each time, the government has to install some new law or department to check abuses. After we threw out slavery, we had Jim Crow laws, then separate but equal, then segregation. Finally, we had to create a Civil Rights Department. After we had corruption, we had trusts and trust-busters. We had to instate the Clayton Act and the Taft-Hartely Act. After child work-abuse, we had child labor laws. After we had so many who died in workplace incidents, we had the Occupational Safety Hazards Act. These are what we call 'public protections'.

These are the laws and regulations that you say are too much. We'll be good, libertarians say, just trust us! Well, what do you have to replace the public protections? Speak! How do you make it all right? We trusted you the first time, and you failed. So?

Libertarianism just wants to drop the ball so we can return to the days of the grifters and the snake-oil salesmen. It's waaaaay to late in the game for that.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:56 am

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Libertarianism suffers from the same problems as many other -isms, especially communism.

You could set up a thriving libertarian or communist utopia if you could do impossible things: 1) make the community totally independent from the rest of the world and 2) make sure every last member of the community believed whole-heartedly in libertarianism, or communism.

The libertarian platform is basically the same as the classic liberals that formed the US (and the UK to a degree). We just through out slavery and ill treatment of women. It's not some crazy idea that hasn't been tried, or hasn't worked.

Bank panics and major economic depressions showed the flaws of the libertarian approach.

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:35 am

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Libertarianism suffers from the same problems as many other -isms, especially communism.

You could set up a thriving libertarian or communist utopia if you could do impossible things: 1) make the community totally independent from the rest of the world and 2) make sure every last member of the community believed whole-heartedly in libertarianism, or communism.

The libertarian platform is basically the same as the classic liberals that formed the US (and the UK to a degree). We just through out slavery and ill treatment of women. It's not some crazy idea that hasn't been tried, or hasn't worked.

You do realise Victorian Britain was absolute hell for the majority of working people? The Thames was basically a sewage dump, the working week was colossal, pay was poverty levels, pollution diabolical. Health and safety didn't exist. Equal rights were nonexistent (of almost any kind). I don't know as much about the US in the 19th century, but I imagine it was no easy ride for most people either.

The more government involved, regulatory changes from around the turn of the 20th century until now have nearly all been to the benefit of working people. The idea of rolling back to any degree is pretty unappealing to most people.

The system that the US had to start with may have been better than what they had under the rule of Britain, but it doesn't measure up to modern standards. Those with power (the rich) would still have power, only more concentrated, more obvious and likely with more terrible results for the average Joe.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:55 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The libertarian platform is basically the same as the classic liberals that formed the US (and the UK to a degree). We just through out slavery and ill treatment of women. It's not some crazy idea that hasn't been tried, or hasn't worked.

You do realise Victorian Britain was absolute hell for the majority of working people? The Thames was basically a sewage dump, the working week was colossal, pay was poverty levels, pollution diabolical. Health and safety didn't exist. Equal rights were nonexistent (of almost any kind). I don't know as much about the US in the 19th century, but I imagine it was no easy ride for most people either.

The more government involved, regulatory changes from around the turn of the 20th century until now have nearly all been to the benefit of working people. The idea of rolling back to any degree is pretty unappealing to most people.

The system that the US had to start with may have been better than what they had under the rule of Britain, but it doesn't measure up to modern standards. Those with power (the rich) would still have power, only more concentrated, more obvious and likely with more terrible results for the average Joe.

Society has changed a great deal since then too. So has government. I guess the question is who led who to change.

Did government lead society to be more tolerant and compassionate or was it the other way around?

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Post by Maddog on Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:59 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The libertarian platform is basically the same as the classic liberals that formed the US (and the UK to a degree). We just through out slavery and ill treatment of women. It's not some crazy idea that hasn't been tried, or hasn't worked.

Bank panics and major economic depressions showed the flaws of the libertarian approach.

Meh, the Great Depression was extended by a decade by FDRs hands on approach. It was the longest depression in our history.

Dont worry, we might see a bigger one in our life. Our debt ie about to approach WWII levels with no victory in sight.

You can thank the Dems and Reps for that. And the people that keep voting for one or the other.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:02 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:I have no idea who she is and I’m not interested in political agendas.

I say, let her speak. Let anyone speak...otherwise it’s the same old voices doing the talking.

So...let her speak. Isn’t that what the thread is about? Free speech? #letherspeak 2190311264

Of course.  She chooses not speak, engaging rather in more mundane political rhetoric...giving all things to all people.  What politician doesn't do that?  Phffft...

The choice to debate has been made for her. Dont try gaslighting people asshole.

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