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I Was Once a Socialist. Then I Saw How It Worked.

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I Was Once a Socialist. Then I Saw How It Worked. Empty I Was Once a Socialist. Then I Saw How It Worked.

Post by Guest on Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:48 pm

I was a socialist in college. I read magazines like The Nation and old issues of The New Masses. I dreamed of being the next Clifford Odets, a lefty playwright who was always trying to raise proletarian class consciousness. If you go on YouTube and search “David Brooks Milton Friedman,” you can see a 22-year-old socialist me debating the great economist. I’m the one with the bushy hair and the giant 1980s glasses that were apparently on loan from the Palomar lunar observatory.

The best version of socialism is defined by Michael Walzer’s phrase, “what touches all should be decided by all.” The great economic enterprises should be owned by all of us in common. Decisions should be based on what benefits all, not the maximization of profit.

That’s not what “democratic socialists” like Bernie Sanders are talking about, but I get why some of their socialist concerns are popular. Why do we have to live with such poverty and inequality? Why can’t we put people over profits? What is the best life in the most just society? Socialism is the most compelling secular religion of all time. It gives you an egalitarian ideal to sacrifice and live for.

My socialist sympathies didn’t survive long once I became a journalist. I quickly noticed that the government officials I was covering were not capable of planning the society they hoped to create. It wasn’t because they were bad or stupid. The world is just too complicated.

I came to realize that capitalism is really good at doing the one thing socialism is really bad at: creating a learning process to help people figure stuff out. If you want to run a rental car company, capitalism has a whole bevy of market and price signals and feedback loops that tell you what kind of cars people want to rent, where to put your locations, how many cars to order. It has a competitive profit-driven process to motivate you to learn and innovate, every single day.

Socialist planned economies — the common ownership of the means of production — interfere with price and other market signals in a million ways. They suppress or eliminate profit motives that drive people to learn and improve.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/opinion/socialism-capitalism.html

Great article and more to read on the link

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:05 pm



Interesting bit of above post...

"...Socialist planned economies — the common ownership of the means of production — interfere with price and other market signals in a million ways. They suppress or eliminate profit motives that drive people to learn and improve..."



The nazis did all of that... so they were socialists after all it seems...!



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Post by Original Quill on Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:27 pm

New York Times wrote:I came to realize that capitalism is really good at doing the one thing socialism is really bad at: creating a learning process to help people figure stuff out. If you want to run a rental car company, capitalism has a whole bevy of market and price signals and feedback loops that tell you what kind of cars people want to rent, where to put your locations, how many cars to order. It has a competitive profit-driven process to motivate you to learn and innovate, every single day.

Socialist planned economies — the common ownership of the means of production — interfere with price and other market signals in a million ways. They suppress or eliminate profit motives that drive people to learn and improve.

So, capitalism is better because society is already set up with “a process to help people figure stuff out”?  The world is presently capitalistic, so of course it’s set up for capitalism.  The world is too complicated?  Price and market signals?  I'm sure if the world were already set up along the socialist model, we would be arguing that capitalism is ill-fit for such a complicated socialist world.  This is simply the “invisible hand” of Adam Smith, writ backwards: leave it be…man isn’t smart enough to engineer it.

That's really like the argument that we shouldn’t look for new sources of energy.  We have to continue burning petroleum because the world is already set up for fossil fuel-based energy.  The world is too complicated, and people developing wind or solar power are "not capable of planning the society they hoped to create." Oh, really?

There are other arguments that fit this mold.  Don’t drive automobiles, ‘get a horse’.  Or, if god wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings.  History is replete with nay-sayers who say “it’s just too complicated”.

You have to dive in to learn to swim.  The only method we have, ultimately, is trial and error.  Sure, mistakes will be made.  But you don’t reject a model or system just because “it’s too complicated”.  Each mistake is a learning experience.  To declare from the start that it can’t be done because it is too complicated, is to accept defeat before you begin.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

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Post by Guest on Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:52 pm

Original Quill wrote:
New York Times wrote:I came to realize that capitalism is really good at doing the one thing socialism is really bad at: creating a learning process to help people figure stuff out. If you want to run a rental car company, capitalism has a whole bevy of market and price signals and feedback loops that tell you what kind of cars people want to rent, where to put your locations, how many cars to order. It has a competitive profit-driven process to motivate you to learn and innovate, every single day.

Socialist planned economies — the common ownership of the means of production — interfere with price and other market signals in a million ways. They suppress or eliminate profit motives that drive people to learn and improve.

So, capitalism is better because society is already set up with “a process to help people figure stuff out”?  The world is presently capitalistic, so of course it’s set up for capitalism.  The world is too complicated?  Price and market signals?  I'm sure if the world were already set up along the socialist model, we would be arguing that capitalism is ill-fit for such a complicated socialist world.  This is simply the “invisible hand” of Adam Smith, writ backwards: leave it be…man isn’t smart enough to engineer it.

That's really like the argument that we shouldn’t look for new sources of energy.  We have to continue burning petroleum because the world is already set up for fossil fuel-based energy.  The world is too complicated, and people developing wind or solar power are "not capable of planning the society they hoped to create."  Oh, really?

There are other arguments that fit this mold.  Don’t drive automobiles, ‘get a horse’.  Or, if god wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings.  History is replete with nay-sayers who say “it’s just too complicated”.

You have to dive in to learn to swim.  The only method we have, ultimately, is trial and error.  Sure, mistakes will be made.  But you don’t reject a model or system just because “it’s too complicated”.  Each mistake is a learning experience.  To declare from the start that it can’t be done because it is too complicated, is to accept defeat before you begin.

WTF? What article were you actually reading here?

You never did. The articles shows up the sort comings of capitalism and this is coming from a former socialist

You have to dive in and see how badly you never learn from history

Capitalism has many faults, but they pale into comparrison with socialism economically

You never even answered his centtral core argument

Lol, truist quill to back a policy that has never worked economically in history and claim it can

Laughing

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:01 pm

phil wrote:The articles shows up the sort comings of capitalism and this is coming from a former socialist

The essential message of this article is, give up...it's too hard! If we extrapolate the words, it is that central planning and economic decision-making is too hard (complicated) for mere mortals, so give it up and let us drift on winds of the natural forces that carry us (which he defines as : "competitive profit-driven process").

Capitalism is not any less contrived than socialism. It is the system we invented, and so it is the system that surrounds us. Quelle suprise! Had we chosen a socialist system first, we would be saying that socialism is the "motive that drives people".

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_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vlad Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:23 pm

When I hear people droning on about planned economies and whatnot, I tune out.

My flavor of socialism is having a capitalist economy and social services to help out the poor.

In a rich country, there is more than enough to provide basic food, housing and medical care for those who can't work. My radical proposition is simply to do that.

And don't tell me that's theft or tyranny, because it's not. The well-off will know true tyranny and theft if they insist upon creating vast hordes of desperate people who will do anything to survive. 

People tend to not simply lay down and quietly die simply because employers don't think they need their skills.

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Post by Guest on Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:35 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:When I hear people droning on about planned economies and whatnot, I tune out.

My flavor of socialism is having a capitalist economy and social services to help out the poor.

In a rich country, there is more than enough to provide basic food, housing and medical care for those who can't work. My radical proposition is simply to do that.

And don't tell me that's theft or tyranny, because it's not. The well-off will know true tyranny and theft if they insist upon creating vast hordes of desperate people who will do anything to survive. 

People tend to not simply lay down and quietly die simply because employers don't think they need their skills.

So your position is to say some people have to pay more than others, even if that is not a fair system in reality?
Yes we have to tackle income inequality. That is a no brainer and if one thing capitalisn has a flaw on in this has been allowed to spiral out of control

The reality is no socialist system devoid of Capitalism has ever worked. In fact its creqated poverty and people unhappy. In so many examples in history. The reality that now many former Communist states have embaraced capitalisn into their economies. Says everything about how advantageous Capitalim is. In combating pverty and advancing the wealth and happiness of a country

So yes lets tackle income inequality, but not froma view to dislike people who are better off. Which is where it always goes wrong and where those socialist leaning. View people with distain for their success.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:02 pm

Thorin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:When I hear people droning on about planned economies and whatnot, I tune out.

My flavor of socialism is having a capitalist economy and social services to help out the poor.

In a rich country, there is more than enough to provide basic food, housing and medical care for those who can't work. My radical proposition is simply to do that.

And don't tell me that's theft or tyranny, because it's not. The well-off will know true tyranny and theft if they insist upon creating vast hordes of desperate people who will do anything to survive. 

People tend to not simply lay down and quietly die simply because employers don't think they need their skills.

So your position is to say some people have to pay more than others, even if that is not a fair system in reality?
Yes we have to tackle income inequality. That is a no brainer and if one thing capitalisn has a flaw on in this has been allowed to spiral out of control

The reality is no socialist system devoid of Capitalism has ever worked. In fact its creqated poverty and people unhappy. In so many examples in history. The reality that now many former Communist states have embaraced capitalisn into their economies. Says everything about how advantageous Capitalim is. In combating pverty and advancing the wealth and happiness of a country

So yes lets tackle income inequality, but not froma view to dislike people who are better off. Which is where it always goes wrong and where those socialist leaning. View people with distain for their success.

There's no dislike or disdain for wealthy people in my philosophy, Thorin. None of my values are based on negative emotions, actually. That whole idea that I and other lefties want to punish the wealthy is a worn-out right-wing canard that has no place in a serious discussion.

Yes, it does mean taking more from those who have more than from those who have less. But that's only logical. A group of three friends at a pub might settle their bill the same way -- the business owner and the MP might pay for more than their share, to help out their schoolteacher friend.

I have never, ever advocated for any sort of planned economy. I even hate tariffs. I just think that there has always been a relationship between the rich and the poor in every society, and that relationship works better when it's friendly -- i.e., I'll help you out as long as you don't fuck with my life, an attitude that goes in both directions.

A society that can afford to, ought to take care of people who are down on their luck. That is a society that resembles a family, rather than a state on the verge of civil war.

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Post by Guest on Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:21 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So your position is to say some people have to pay more than others, even if that is not a fair system in reality?
Yes we have to tackle income inequality. That is a no brainer and if one thing capitalisn has a flaw on in this has been allowed to spiral out of control

The reality is no socialist system devoid of Capitalism has ever worked. In fact its creqated poverty and people unhappy. In so many examples in history. The reality that now many former Communist states have embaraced capitalisn into their economies. Says everything about how advantageous Capitalim is. In combating pverty and advancing the wealth and happiness of a country

So yes lets tackle income inequality, but not froma view to dislike people who are better off. Which is where it always goes wrong and where those socialist leaning. View people with distain for their success.

There's no dislike or disdain for wealthy people in my philosophy, Thorin. None of my values are based on negative emotions, actually. That whole idea that I and other lefties want to punish the wealthy is a worn-out right-wing canard that has no place in a serious discussion.

Yes, it does mean taking more from those who have more than from those who have less. But that's only logical. A group of three friends at a pub might settle their bill the same way -- the business owner and the MP might pay for more than their share, to help out their schoolteacher friend.

I have never, ever advocated for any sort of planned economy. I even hate tariffs. I just think that there has always been a relationship between the rich and the poor in every society, and that relationship works better when it's friendly -- i.e., I'll help you out as long as you don't fuck with my life, an attitude that goes in both directions.

A society that can afford to, ought to take care of people who are down on their luck. That is a society that resembles a family, rather than a state on the verge of civil war.

Let me simple clarify this first of all Ben

You happen to be one of the most honest backers of socialism that I know, but for many on the Far left there is a very real view of envy and hatred. This is born out for example with antisemitism. Where Jews can be seen with many antisemitic troupes based around wealth, power and privilege. To say many do not, when litteraly millions died in the policies of communism that targetted the wealthy in the Soviet Union, China etc. Is in this case, you not being honest with history or the views of the far left socialist/Marxist mindset. As millions were murdered based on such hate of those better off in these societies.

So its not a worn out policy by the right and I am a Liberal. Its an actual reality of simple understanding how some people do think and have acted in history and on this. Still doing so today These people at heart are the most socialist leaning in their views. So on that point, you are simple not being honest towards yourself here. We now with a modern philosophy regarding privilege. Sees people white and again Jews more so in not being treated equally based off false sterotypes around wealth and power. Hence the term white privilege., whilst created from an intention to do good. Now creates a view of people racially and based off a perceived privilege on their skin colour. This does not tackle income inequality but actually produces a mindset that creates hate and seperate that divides people on their skin colour in thinking. Its never learning from the past but creating new problems from the same poor thinking of the past. Looking to cast blame at people due to their skin colour.  

So please Ben, do not try to tell me that some people on the left do not have an envy or hate of people based around wealth. When its litteraly been one of the many causes of hate against Jews in history with economic antisemitism. Its fucking insulting to be honest you downplay this age old hatred that still exists today, which shows how people on the left fail to see how a hatred is formed from wealth itself against a people. The Nazi's hated the Jews as a race and blamed them for Communism. The Communists hated the Jews and blamed them for capitalism. Its how and why both the Far left and far right can and do often allign in their hatred of a group or people and scapegoat them. To the tune they will whip up hatred against them. Asa view to blame them for economic hardships currently going on at the time in said countries

This is one of my biggest pet peeves. How we rightly view Nazism as one of the biggest vilest hatred seen in history and yet often people make excuses for Communism in history. To the tune we now see people left leaning argue that the Gulags was a good thing for the Soviet people. Both nazism and Communism are hateful ideologies. They should be seen with the same distain and yet people on the left often make excuses for Communism. That my friend is a major issue and a massive case of ostrich parasitic syndrome

On the rest of your points I have no issue with and are very fair, but. You simple cannot dismiss the real reality of history that is still being played out today with a hate and loathing towards people better off by people. Who often are brought up in well off families themselves as middle class. These very people have never suffer hardship themselves and yet try to whip up hate against people based on their very susccess. That is why yet again we are seeing antisemitism rise again today on the left and right. Jews are being scapegoated based around the wrongs in the world today and its based on the left leaning argument around wealth, power and privilege

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Post by Guest on Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:53 pm

Thorin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

There's no dislike or disdain for wealthy people in my philosophy, Thorin. None of my values are based on negative emotions, actually. That whole idea that I and other lefties want to punish the wealthy is a worn-out right-wing canard that has no place in a serious discussion.

.

Let me simple clarify this first of all Ben

You happen to be one of the most honest backers of socialism that I know, but for many on the Far left there is a very real view of envy and hatred. This is born out for example with antisemitism. Where Jews can be seen with many antisemitic troupes based around wealth, power and privilege. To say many do not, when litteraly millions died in the policies of communism that targetted the wealthy in the Soviet Union, China etc. Is in this case, you not being honest with history or the views of the far left socialist/Marxist mindset. As millions were murdered based on such hate of those better off in these societies.

So its not a worn out policy by the right and I am a Liberal. Its an actual reality of simple understanding how some people do think and have acted in history and on this. Still doing so today These people at heart are the most socialist leaning in their views. So on that point, you are simple not being honest towards yourself here. We now with a modern philosophy regarding privilege. Sees people white and again Jews more so in not being treated equally based off false sterotypes around wealth and power. Hence the term white privilege., whilst created from an intention to do good. Now creates a view of people racially and based off a perceived privilege on their skin colour. This does not tackle income inequality but actually produces a mindset that creates hate and seperate that divides people on their skin colour in thinking. Its never learning from the past but creating new problems from the same poor thinking of the past. Looking to cast blame at people due to their skin colour.  

So please Ben, do not try to tell me that some people on the left do not have an envy or hate of people based around wealth. When its litteraly been one of the many causes of hate against Jews in history with economic antisemitism. Its fucking insulting to be honest you downplay this age old hatred that still exists today, which shows how people on the left fail to see how a hatred is formed from wealth itself against a people. The Nazi's hated the Jews as a race and blamed them for Communism. The Communists hated the Jews and blamed them for capitalism. Its how and why both the Far left and far right can and do often allign in their hatred of a group or people and scapegoat them. To the tune they will whip up hatred against them. Asa view to blame them for economic hardships currently going on at the time in said countries

This is one of my biggest pet peeves. How we rightly view Nazism as one of the biggest vilest hatred seen in history and yet often people make excuses for Communism in history. To the tune we now see people left leaning argue that the Gulags was a good thing for the Soviet people. Both nazism and Communism are hateful ideologies. They should be seen with the same distain and yet people on the left often make excuses for Communism. That my friend is a major issue and a massive case of ostrich parasitic syndrome

On the rest of your points I have no issue with and are very fair, but. You simple cannot dismiss the real reality of history that is still being played out today with a hate and loathing towards people better off by people. Who often are brought up in well off families themselves as middle class. These very people have never suffer hardship themselves and yet try to whip up hate against people based on their very susccess. That is why yet again we are seeing antisemitism rise again today on the left and right. Jews are being scapegoated based around the wrongs in the world today and its based on the left leaning argument around wealth, power and privilege

What I highlighted really shows a lack of understanding Ben and because I believe you are an honest broker in debate here. Lets see if you actually admit to being wrong here? Yes many people on the left do not act or seee views this way, but a sizeable number do. Just as a sizeable number on the right are often racist, homophobic etc. Where i have no issue calling out those on the right with such intoerant views as hateful, bigoted and prejudiced. Nobody is claiming you wish to punish rich people, but the fact you ignore those on the left that do. Is not being very honest here mate. I am not being against the left here. I am being rightly against the Far left and Far right. Sadly you seem to ignore the views of the far left that do create hate

My view is the best societies are based on a balance of left and right views that center near to the middle through liberalism and secularism

When people downplay a problem, they are never recognising a problem or learning from history itself. I would rather join you tackling issues, but to deny issues that do exist. Makes it that much harder, if you are unwilling to believe such problems exist on the left

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Post by 'Wolfie on Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:32 am

Smile

Once again Dodge has posted up the usual lies from a Repub' propagandist masquerading as a liberal-minded "journalist"...

And in the process, Dodgie has once again exposed his own ignorance of what economic and political terminology actually means..

Also interesting that Carlos Slim is now the NYT's #1 shareholder.


P.S.  Why is that those champions-of-profit-above-all-else, like the "journalist" in the O/P,  will decry gov't spending on healthcare --  yet are so quick to jump to the defence of the USA's profligate over-spending on the military..

After all, the US gov'ts profit-driven military system did produce the most useless, inefficient and unreliable vehicle in world history --  with GM's Hummer disaster,  where the allies' Landcruisers, LandRovers and Mercedes G-wagens outperformed it in every area except one (i.e. getting blown up by enemy IEDs, after breaking down (again) while on patrol..).

Want a $120 hammer or a $2k toilet seat ?  Then order it through the US "all for profit" military  !!!


Last edited by 'Wolfie on Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:36 am

'Wolfie wrote:Smile

Once again Dodge has posted up the usual lies from a Repub' propagandist masquerading as a liberal-minded "journalist"...

And in the process, Dodgie has once again exposed his own ignorance of what economic and political terminology actually means..

Also interesting that Carlos Slim is now the NYT's #1 shareholder.

I rest my case

Do you know who posted this to me?

Jonathan Haidt, a left wing democrat

So explain what is the lies in the article?

The fact you continue to call me dodge says what about you here Wolf?

You are not interested with facts but demeaning people

Its up to you if you do not believe the reality of the article, but you once again use this as an oportune moment to spout hate aga9inst posters here

Bravo mate

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Post by 'Wolfie on Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:55 am

Thorin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:When I hear people droning on about planned economies and whatnot, I tune out.

My flavor of socialism is having a capitalist economy and social services to help out the poor.

In a rich country, there is more than enough to provide basic food, housing and medical care for those who can't work. My radical proposition is simply to do that.

And don't tell me that's theft or tyranny, because it's not. The well-off will know true tyranny and theft if they insist upon creating vast hordes of desperate people who will do anything to survive. 

People tend to not simply lay down and quietly die simply because employers don't think they need their skills.

So your position is to say some people have to pay more than others, even if that is not a fair system in reality?
Yes we have to tackle income inequality. That is a no brainer and if one thing capitalisn has a flaw on in this has been allowed to spiral out of control

The reality is no socialist system devoid of Capitalism has ever worked. In fact its creqated poverty and people unhappy. In so many examples in history. The reality that now many former Communist states have embaraced capitalisn into their economies. Says everything about how advantageous Capitalim is. In combating pverty and advancing the wealth and happiness of a country

So yes lets tackle income inequality, but not froma view to dislike people who are better off. Which is where it always goes wrong and where those socialist leaning. View people with distain for their success.
I Was Once a Socialist. Then I Saw How It Worked. 1399249160

And here we see Dodger once again championing his beloved 'Feudal' style capitalism --  where the poor, the disabled, the sick and the dispossessed are reduced to beggars, dependant on the occasional handouts from their rich overlords...

"Socialism devoid of capitalism" isn't true "socialism", but a communist dictatorship..

Dodge does like to ignore the underlying meaning of the word "social" within the original use of the term 'socialist' as an economic system.

I now await Dodge's regular bullshit lies about British billionaires donating more money to charities than all other Brit's combined;  or his other false claim that big businesses still "create jobs".

_________________
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Our life is frittered away by details. Simplify, simplify.
The mass of men lead lives of quite desperation.
Henry David Thoreau
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Post by 'Wolfie on Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:00 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Interesting bit of above post...

"...Socialist planned economies — the common ownership of the means of production — interfere with price and other market signals in a million ways. They suppress or eliminate profit motives that drive people to learn and improve..."

The nazis did all of that... so they were socialists after all it seems...!
I Was Once a Socialist. Then I Saw How It Worked. 3489511464

Poor l'il Tommykins...

The classic example of "someone who's so stupid, he doesn't realise how stupid he is.."

Or,  alternatively  :  "so stupid, that he thinks he's smarter than everyone else on here."

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:02 am

'Wolfie wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So your position is to say some people have to pay more than others, even if that is not a fair system in reality?
Yes we have to tackle income inequality. That is a no brainer and if one thing capitalisn has a flaw on in this has been allowed to spiral out of control

The reality is no socialist system devoid of Capitalism has ever worked. In fact its creqated poverty and people unhappy. In so many examples in history. The reality that now many former Communist states have embaraced capitalisn into their economies. Says everything about how advantageous Capitalim is. In combating pverty and advancing the wealth and happiness of a country

So yes lets tackle income inequality, but not froma view to dislike people who are better off. Which is where it always goes wrong and where those socialist leaning. View people with distain for their success.
I Was Once a Socialist. Then I Saw How It Worked. 1399249160

And here we see Dodger once again championing his beloved 'Feudal' style capitalism --  where the poor, the disabled, the sick and the dispossessed are reduced to beggars, dependant on the occasional handouts from their rich overlords...

"Socialism devoid of capitalism" isn't true "socialism", but a communist dictatorship..

Dodge does like to ignore the underlying meaning of the word "social" within the original use of the term 'socialist' as an economic system.

I now await Dodge's regular bullshit lies about British billionaires donating more money to charities than all other Brit's combined;  or his other false claim that big businesses still "create jobs".

Can anyone here see me making the claimed views above made by Wolf?

I am against feudalism

I am all for helping the poor, the disabled, the sick and dispossed. Maybe Wolf failed to see that capitalism alongside socialism together in harmnony has achieved combating these very problems.

Has he failed to see that if not for capitalism, Billions, would still be in poverty

I am not suggesting for one second capitalism is perfect. It certainly has flaws. I also recognise that traits of socialism are needed to help combat the flaws of capitalism itself. Yet when someone as wolf does here make false accusations on me. Even more failing to see the point I made to Ben on how some of the left blame and scapegoat people based on wealth. Then wolf fails to see he is doing this very same thing himself and proving my point exactly. Wolf fails to see he actually just proved my point to Ben

For wolf to go off British billionaires and a view to donating to charity did what here Ben?

Show exactly my point in how some of the left hold a real distain for those rich in society

I cannot thank Woilf enough for proving my point

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Post by Eilzel on Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:00 am

Considering the large number of voters in the west who continue to support Left leaning policies, and of which vast numbers are not 'poor' and many of who are certainly very rich, it should be absolutely clear that this is not about 'envy', since millions who vote for them have nothing to be envious about.

Likewise, on the Right, millions of voters who vote conservative parties into power are not voting based on 'greed'.

The 'politics of greed and envy' are lazy tropes which don't ring true for the vast majority of voters

On the same note, debunking socialist 'planned economies' in the west is also a road to nowhere, since there are about as many people (in fact probably less) advocating that than there are libertarians advocating the near complete roll back of the state.

Social Democrats (or Democratic Socialists, as they are often called these days, rather unhelpfully), do not desire a planned economy. They just want government assurances of certain services which ought to be treated as rights (i.e. health, education and energy). And not to be in the domain of private enterprise, where profits, not individual well-being, are paramount.

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Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:31 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:When I hear people droning on about planned economies and whatnot, I tune out.

My flavor of socialism is having a capitalist economy and social services to help out the poor.

In a rich country, there is more than enough to provide basic food, housing and medical care for those who can't work. My radical proposition is simply to do that.

And don't tell me that's theft or tyranny, because it's not. The well-off will know true tyranny and theft if they insist upon creating vast hordes of desperate people who will do anything to survive. 

People tend to not simply lay down and quietly die simply because employers don't think they need their skills.

You're idea of socialism isn't socialism. But by all means keep tuning out and continue to make up your own definitions for economic theories. Cool

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Post by Eilzel on Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:51 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:When I hear people droning on about planned economies and whatnot, I tune out.

My flavor of socialism is having a capitalist economy and social services to help out the poor.

In a rich country, there is more than enough to provide basic food, housing and medical care for those who can't work. My radical proposition is simply to do that.

And don't tell me that's theft or tyranny, because it's not. The well-off will know true tyranny and theft if they insist upon creating vast hordes of desperate people who will do anything to survive. 

People tend to not simply lay down and quietly die simply because employers don't think they need their skills.

You're idea of socialism isn't socialism.  But by all means keep tuning out and continue to make up your own definitions for economic theories.  Cool

But the only reason this happens is because conservatives in both our countries label any progressive policy they don't like as 'socialist' (medicare for all, nationalisation of publoc services).

Just two weeks ago Boris Johnson himself labelled Corbyn's bid to part nationalise BT and provide free broadband as 'communist broadband'.

So I'm afraid the Right are every bit as guilty of abusing and warping terminology as the Left.

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Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:17 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

You're idea of socialism isn't socialism.  But by all means keep tuning out and continue to make up your own definitions for economic theories.  Cool

But the only reason this happens is because conservatives in both our countries label any progressive policy they don't like as 'socialist' (medicare for all, nationalisation of publoc services).

Just two weeks ago Boris Johnson himself labelled Corbyn's bid to part nationalise BT and provide free broadband as 'communist broadband'.

So I'm afraid the Right are every bit as guilty of abusing and warping terminology as the Left.


Conservatives and liberals misuse or mislabel the term.

I cant tell you how many times a liberal has said "if you support a fire department you support socialism".

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:21 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:When I hear people droning on about planned economies and whatnot, I tune out.

Yes, the bane of all rational people, and the favorite of Republicans, are those people who "tune out". In the darkness of lethargy, Republicans can build their lies and do their bad deeds. People who "tune out" are what ruins democracy.

It takes patience, and lots of energy to see or hear an argument to the finish. But as Republicans have proven, it is our only defense.


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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:01 pm

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

But the only reason this happens is because conservatives in both our countries label any progressive policy they don't like as 'socialist' (medicare for all, nationalisation of publoc services).

Just two weeks ago Boris Johnson himself labelled Corbyn's bid to part nationalise BT and provide free broadband as 'communist broadband'.

So I'm afraid the Right are every bit as guilty of abusing and warping terminology as the Left.


Conservatives and liberals misuse or mislabel the term.  

I cant tell you how many times a liberal has said "if you support a fire department you support socialism".  


lol!

Brilliant

+1

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:33 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:When I hear people droning on about planned economies and whatnot, I tune out.

My flavor of socialism is having a capitalist economy and social services to help out the poor.

In a rich country, there is more than enough to provide basic food, housing and medical care for those who can't work. My radical proposition is simply to do that.

And don't tell me that's theft or tyranny, because it's not. The well-off will know true tyranny and theft if they insist upon creating vast hordes of desperate people who will do anything to survive. 

People tend to not simply lay down and quietly die simply because employers don't think they need their skills.

We seem to be forgetting the whole panoply of things that led to the rise of capitalism and socialism. A new mode of life came along, and we had to rearrange things to meet it. That is, the Industrial Revolution came along, which produced things cheaper, but which itself was more costly...the tooling to set up factories and machines cost money, which we call capital.

Thus, we have the need for capital. We can get it from private sources, or we can band together and get it from ourselves. If we get it from private sources, we have to pay for it. This is called profit, and it is the basis of capitalism (there's that word). If we get it from banding together, we don't have to pay for it (ourselves = society -> socialism), but we create a huge pile of cash which must be safeguarded.

What has been the stumbling block for socialist countries is the temptation to redirect the funds away from funding production, and into the pockets of people in power. We see that happening graphically in Putin's Russia, and in Trump's America. We saw that happening in the past in German, Italian and Soviet style systems (Bolshevism), only they tried to give it a patina of legitimacy by corrupting (Stalin/Lenin) the underbelly, while dressing the top in the theory of Marx.

Probably the only socialism that has worked is the mixed socialism of Britain. In order for socialism to work we have to see a groundswell of public spirit overwhelm the greed of a few. Only Britain had that mixture.

I believe that is the mixture that Ben is talking about (correct me if I'm wrong), only Ben elevates capitalism to a slightly higher plane. Capitalism is not the backdrop, or default option that people seem to think it is. Capitalism was invented, just like socialism, to meet the high costs of setting up production in the manner of the Industrial Revolution. It was this, or that, but neither are natural, or the background option.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vlad Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:07 pm

socialism as it is practiced, is a far cry from the ideal, indeed the two are NEVER the same animal.
for instance, housing

in the old grey crows scheme of thibngs everyone would be given a house, which would be "sufficient for their needs"

1) who decides whats sufficient
2) what happens when those needs change

one could for see everyone getting a little grey box with just sufficient room and rooms to live in little if any garden and NOT where you want it to be.
hence if you wanted to move home, instead of looking round and buying where you want to live THE STATE would dictate that, according to ITS needs for worker drones.
want a shed to do a bit of wood working...sorry not possible
want a garage big enough to service your car in...sorry and you dont need it anyway....

OH look you have retired and your children have left home, sorry you are going to be compulsararily moved to an old folks complex the other side of the country where theres room, no you cant have your hobby room, no you cant continue your hobby of amateur radio cos it might interfere with your neighbours pacemaker since he's only through a thin plaster wall. And hard luck if you never see your family again.

need repairs urgently...sorry the repair mans union, to whom we surrendered power, is on strike and go slow...you will have to wait months.

oh and you have a private pension, well you can afford it we will take that as a "top up" rent.


oh and you shoot do you...not any more, you cannot meet the security requirements to store your guns in one of our plasterboard boxes.(not that you NEED to go shooting its a toffs sport after all, so say the lefty anti's, the policy of envy and class war again)

oh and you have a car do you mr retiree...sorry not any more you dont NEEED it, your complex has everything you need, you will of course not be able to choose where to shop and will have to pay whatever the local state controlled shop demands.


THAT is how it REALLY works, this wonderful socialism, ask any of Honekers old "happy socialists"

just look at east germany, poland, the old slovak states.....they were "little grey men in little grey boxes"...etc etc etc...

the truth is that contrary to what Les says.....class war and the politics of envy figure massively in the (particularly Crobyns) vision of a "socialist ideal".

look at this idea of a govt owned broadband.......whats the REAL reason behind it.......CONTROL thats what. internet censorship and political interference in net neutrality.
we would end up with a system a bit like the old coal board.....will only work with approved machines, will only work when the unions decide to let it, and will be subject to endless govt interference which will slow everything down to a standstill....ok the broadband will be 100megabits/second, but it will only work 1 hour out of 24 and only if theres a z in the month and the unions are not on strike.

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If at any time in 2018 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2019 AINT gonna be any different

Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

.(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:13 pm

oh and just to add, what govt has tried to steal bandwith from the radio amateur community, to sell (at the states profit) to private industry in the last 40 years???

only 1

what flavour was it?

left wing

France


every other nation has either given more bandwith or offered a fair trade of one set of frequencies for another....

Note, they didnt succeed, since the international board that oversees frequency allocations stopped them....but the point is they tried...

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If at any time in 2018 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2019 AINT gonna be any different

Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

.(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)

[b]I DONT BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:43 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:socialism as it is practiced, is a far cry from the ideal, indeed the two are NEVER the same animal.
for instance, housing

in the old grey crows scheme of thibngs everyone would be given a house, which would be "sufficient for their needs"

1) who decides whats sufficient
2) what happens when those needs change

one could for see everyone getting a little grey box with just sufficient room and rooms to live in  little if any garden and NOT where you want it to be.
hence if you wanted to move home, instead of looking round and buying where you want to live THE STATE would dictate that, according to ITS needs for worker drones.
want a shed to do a bit of wood working...sorry not possible
want a garage big enough to service your car in...sorry and you dont need it anyway....

OH look you have retired and your children have left home, sorry you are going to be compulsararily moved to an old folks complex the other side of the country where theres room, no you cant have your hobby room, no you cant continue your hobby of amateur radio cos it might interfere with your neighbours pacemaker since he's only through a thin plaster wall. And hard luck if you never see your family again.

need repairs urgently...sorry the repair mans union, to whom we surrendered power, is on strike and go slow...you will have to wait months.

oh and you have a private pension, well you can afford it we will take that as a "top up" rent.


oh and you shoot do you...not any more, you cannot meet the security requirements to store your guns in one of our plasterboard boxes.(not that you NEED to go shooting its a toffs sport after all, so say the lefty anti's, the policy of envy and class war again)

oh and you have a car do you mr retiree...sorry not any more you dont NEEED it, your complex has everything you need, you will of course not be able to choose where to shop and will have to pay whatever the local state controlled shop demands.


THAT is how it REALLY works, this wonderful socialism, ask any of Honekers old "happy socialists"

just look at east germany, poland, the old slovak states.....they were "little grey men in little grey boxes"...etc etc etc...

the truth is that contrary to what Les says.....class war and the politics of envy figure massively in the (particularly Crobyns) vision of a "socialist ideal".

look at this idea of a govt owned broadband.......whats the REAL reason behind it.......CONTROL thats what. internet censorship and political interference in net neutrality.
we would end up with a system a bit like the old coal board.....will only work with approved machines, will only work when the unions decide to let it, and will be subject to endless govt interference which will slow everything down to a standstill....ok the broadband will be 100megabits/second, but it will only work 1 hour out of 24 and only if theres a z in the month and the unions are not on strike.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:16 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:socialism as it is practiced, is a far cry from the ideal, indeed the two are NEVER the same animal.
for instance, housing

in the old grey crows scheme of thibngs everyone would be given a house, which would be "sufficient for their needs"

1) who decides whats sufficient
2) what happens when those needs change

one could for see everyone getting a little grey box with just sufficient room and rooms to live in  little if any garden and NOT where you want it to be.
hence if you wanted to move home, instead of looking round and buying where you want to live THE STATE would dictate that, according to ITS needs for worker drones.
want a shed to do a bit of wood working...sorry not possible
want a garage big enough to service your car in...sorry and you dont need it anyway....

OH look you have retired and your children have left home, sorry you are going to be compulsararily moved to an old folks complex the other side of the country where theres room, no you cant have your hobby room, no you cant continue your hobby of amateur radio cos it might interfere with your neighbours pacemaker since he's only through a thin plaster wall. And hard luck if you never see your family again.

need repairs urgently...sorry the repair mans union, to whom we surrendered power, is on strike and go slow...you will have to wait months.

oh and you have a private pension, well you can afford it we will take that as a "top up" rent.


oh and you shoot do you...not any more, you cannot meet the security requirements to store your guns in one of our plasterboard boxes.(not that you NEED to go shooting its a toffs sport after all, so say the lefty anti's, the policy of envy and class war again)

oh and you have a car do you mr retiree...sorry not any more you dont NEEED it, your complex has everything you need, you will of course not be able to choose where to shop and will have to pay whatever the local state controlled shop demands.


THAT is how it REALLY works, this wonderful socialism, ask any of Honekers old "happy socialists"

just look at east germany, poland, the old slovak states.....they were "little grey men in little grey boxes"...etc etc etc...

the truth is that contrary to what Les says.....class war and the politics of envy figure massively in the (particularly Crobyns) vision of a "socialist ideal".

look at this idea of a govt owned broadband.......whats the REAL reason behind it.......CONTROL thats what. internet censorship and political interference in net neutrality.
we would end up with a system a bit like the old coal board.....will only work with approved machines, will only work when the unions decide to let it, and will be subject to endless govt interference which will slow everything down to a standstill....ok the broadband will be 100megabits/second, but it will only work 1 hour out of 24 and only if theres a z in the month and the unions are not on strike.

Equality is a bitch, innit? If you are really missing out on something essential to your life, you need to pay attention and record your grievance. The problem is the apathy that people manifest. In a capitalist system if you want something, and can afford it, you take a Saturday afternoon off and go buy it.

In a socialist system, you have got to become involved and express your needs and wants. There are costs in either system, and in a socialist system the cost is involvement.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vlad Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Victorismyhero on Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:15 am

and you have the typical lefty approach to socialism, the pie in the sky jam tomorrow ideal....
there IS no involvement in a socialist world.....
the older person who has his home taken off him (cos he doesnt NEED one so big) and is forced perforce to accept a tiny flat in some "old folks complex" and no option but to take his services from that place doesnt get "involvement"

the person who HAS to accept the govt broadband, because there are no rivals allowed has no "involvement"

etc etc etc

its all decided for you by those who feel empowered to be of the opinion that "they" know whats best for YOU.


of course all the time THEY are living exactly like all those rich billionairs they profess to hate so much.

all a change to socialism from capitalism means to the "man in the street" is a change of who's boss...and NOT, indeed rarely, for the better since the incomming goons are very often far less competant than the out going ones.
I mean look at the old grey crow and his cohorts....Dianne Abbot for home secretary fgs?????

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If at any time in 2018 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2019 AINT gonna be any different

Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

.(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)

[b]I DONT BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:54 pm

Victor wrote:and you have the typical lefty approach to socialism, the pie in the sky jam tomorrow ideal....
there IS no involvement in a socialist world.....
the older person who has his home taken off him (cos he doesnt NEED one so big) and is forced perforce to accept a tiny flat in some "old folks complex" and no option but to take his services from that place doesnt get "involvement"

the person who HAS to accept the govt broadband, because there are no rivals allowed has no "involvement"

etc etc etc

its all decided for you by those who feel empowered to be of the opinion that "they" know whats best for YOU.

How is that different from a non-socialist economy?  I mean, the capitalist excludes you by raising the price, and maximizing his profit.  Their idea of competition is to eliminate each other, and thus create a monopoly.  Or, they bypass the entire competition part, and make deals for public-legal monopolies.

What capitalism does is make the world beautiful for the 1%, and create a realm-of-possibility, however improbable, that everyone of us can become billionaires--even tho from the macro view, inflation makes such an eventuality virtually impossible.

Face it, it's equality vs. selfishness. My money is on equality...it's at least feasible.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vlad Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:01 pm

Victor wrote:of course all the time THEY are living exactly like all those rich billionairs they profess to hate so much.

I think we both know that is a fiction. There aren't enough gilded chandeliers to go around.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vlad Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's your's is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...  Putin tells him what to think.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:21 pm

Victor wrote:all a change to socialism from capitalism means to the "man in the street" is a change of who's boss...and NOT, indeed rarely, for the better since the incomming goons are very often far less competant than the out going ones.

Sounds like suspicions of the deep state.  Let’s take that idea apart, and analyze it.

That there must be bosses is the result of your (and others) inattention to the details of governing.  If we didn't allow ourselves to be distracted, and showed up at the Governor's mansion every day, we could indeed create a pure democracy...one person, one vote, all questions, all concerns.

But we don't pay attention.  Our eyes become glossy and our brain deadens.  So, we assign certain people to pay attention for us, and we call that a Republic.  Whether you call them representatives or bosses is irrelevant, and a matter of semantics.  You alienated that part of your life from yourself.

But you do identify the nexus at which any form of government, not just socialism, is corruptible.  It is precisely when you give over your own overseer role to another, that unscrupulous people see a scam opportunity.  That's why you ought to dip your big toe into the warm waters of politics now and then, just to see if everything is OK.  If you maintain that connection, you won’t alienate yourself. Democracy is a responsibility, and not just free ride.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:02 am

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:When I hear people droning on about planned economies and whatnot, I tune out.

My flavor of socialism is having a capitalist economy and social services to help out the poor.

In a rich country, there is more than enough to provide basic food, housing and medical care for those who can't work. My radical proposition is simply to do that.

And don't tell me that's theft or tyranny, because it's not. The well-off will know true tyranny and theft if they insist upon creating vast hordes of desperate people who will do anything to survive. 

People tend to not simply lay down and quietly die simply because employers don't think they need their skills.

You're idea of socialism isn't socialism.  But by all means keep tuning out and continue to make up your own definitions for economic theories.  Cool

Then pull up the right when they call people like me a socialist for supporting Obamacare, for instance.
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Post by Victorismyhero on Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:29 am

Original Quill wrote:
Victor wrote:all a change to socialism from capitalism means to the "man in the street" is a change of who's boss...and NOT, indeed rarely, for the better since the incomming goons are very often far less competant than the out going ones.

Sounds like suspicions of the deep state.  Let’s take that idea apart, and analyze it.

That there must be bosses is the result of your (and others) inattention to the details of governing.  If we didn't allow ourselves to be distracted, and showed up at the Governor's mansion every day, we could indeed create a pure democracy...one person, one vote, all questions, all concerns.

But we don't pay attention.  Our eyes become glossy and our brain deadens.  So, we assign certain people to pay attention for us, and we call that a Republic.  Whether you call them representatives or bosses is irrelevant, and a matter of semantics.  You alienated that part of your life from yourself.

But you do identify the nexus at which any form of government, not just socialism, is corruptible.  It is precisely when you give over your own overseer role to another, that unscrupulous people see a scam opportunity.  That's why you ought to dip your big toe into the warm waters of politics now and then, just to see if everything is OK.  If you maintain that connection, you won’t alienate yourself.  Democracy is a responsibility, and not just free ride.

theoretical socialism, Pffft
All very well but we know it doesnt work...because of??? People.
see once again ONLY the very rich have the time, luxury, knowledge, and access to information needed to do so. everyone else is fully occupied with working for a living or even just surviving.
and of course there are far too many of the lesser beings out there that are not fit to be left to drive a spanner, let along make any sensible political judgement, too many of the "its good to be fick innit" brigade.
YOU are ok because as a lawyer you probably only need to actually WORK 2 days a week and are perforce extremely well off
I am OK because since I'm retired i have time available

my daughter however working on minimum wage in child care, running a home and having 2 young children does NOT have the option to spend the necessary time wallowing in political theory, examining what govt is doing etc OR attempting to divine what exactly is the agenda, regardless of what their manifestos say.

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Post by nicko on Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:38 pm

Well said Vic, and so very true !
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Post by Original Quill on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:03 pm

Victor wrote:theoretical socialism, Pffft
All very well but we know it doesnt work...because of??? People.
see once again ONLY the very rich have the time, luxury, knowledge, and access to information needed to do so. everyone else is fully occupied with working for a living or even just surviving.

So you urge that we give up??  That makes no sense at all.  In fact, it feeds right into the capitalist feed trough.

'Aw, baby, don't you worry your pretty lil head 'bout nothin.  Big Cappy here will take care of everything.'

Nah, the fight isn't that we're too busy or tired.  The fight is with those guys over there who want us to fall asleep, while they steal all our possessions.

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:57 pm

Original Quill wrote:
New York Times wrote:I came to realize that capitalism is really good at doing the one thing socialism is really bad at: creating a learning process to help people figure stuff out. If you want to run a rental car company, capitalism has a whole bevy of market and price signals and feedback loops that tell you what kind of cars people want to rent, where to put your locations, how many cars to order. It has a competitive profit-driven process to motivate you to learn and innovate, every single day.

Socialist planned economies — the common ownership of the means of production — interfere with price and other market signals in a million ways. They suppress or eliminate profit motives that drive people to learn and improve.

So, capitalism is better because society is already set up with “a process to help people figure stuff out”?  The world is presently capitalistic, so of course it’s set up for capitalism.  The world is too complicated?  Price and market signals?  I'm sure if the world were already set up along the socialist model, we would be arguing that capitalism is ill-fit for such a complicated socialist world.  This is simply the “invisible hand” of Adam Smith, writ backwards: leave it be…man isn’t smart enough to engineer it.

That's really like the argument that we shouldn’t look for new sources of energy.  We have to continue burning petroleum because the world is already set up for fossil fuel-based energy.  The world is too complicated, and people developing wind or solar power are "not capable of planning the society they hoped to create."  Oh, really?

There are other arguments that fit this mold.  Don’t drive automobiles, ‘get a horse’.  Or, if god wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings.  History is replete with nay-sayers who say “it’s just too complicated”.

You have to dive in to learn to swim.  The only method we have, ultimately, is trial and error.  Sure, mistakes will be made.  But you don’t reject a model or system just because “it’s too complicated”.  Each mistake is a learning experience.  To declare from the start that it can’t be done because it is too complicated, is to accept defeat before you begin.
what has been better for the poor, socialism or capitalism. Socialism hasn't removed anyone from poverty

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Post by The Devil, You Know on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:58 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

So, capitalism is better because society is already set up with “a process to help people figure stuff out”?  The world is presently capitalistic, so of course it’s set up for capitalism.  The world is too complicated?  Price and market signals?  I'm sure if the world were already set up along the socialist model, we would be arguing that capitalism is ill-fit for such a complicated socialist world.  This is simply the “invisible hand” of Adam Smith, writ backwards: leave it be…man isn’t smart enough to engineer it.

That's really like the argument that we shouldn’t look for new sources of energy.  We have to continue burning petroleum because the world is already set up for fossil fuel-based energy.  The world is too complicated, and people developing wind or solar power are "not capable of planning the society they hoped to create."  Oh, really?

There are other arguments that fit this mold.  Don’t drive automobiles, ‘get a horse’.  Or, if god wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings.  History is replete with nay-sayers who say “it’s just too complicated”.

You have to dive in to learn to swim.  The only method we have, ultimately, is trial and error.  Sure, mistakes will be made.  But you don’t reject a model or system just because “it’s too complicated”.  Each mistake is a learning experience.  To declare from the start that it can’t be done because it is too complicated, is to accept defeat before you begin.
what has been better for the poor, socialism or capitalism. Socialism hasn't removed anyone from poverty

I should qualify that with, " with the exception of the leadership"

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:54 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

So, capitalism is better because society is already set up with “a process to help people figure stuff out”?  The world is presently capitalistic, so of course it’s set up for capitalism.  The world is too complicated?  Price and market signals?  I'm sure if the world were already set up along the socialist model, we would be arguing that capitalism is ill-fit for such a complicated socialist world.  This is simply the “invisible hand” of Adam Smith, writ backwards: leave it be…man isn’t smart enough to engineer it.

That's really like the argument that we shouldn’t look for new sources of energy.  We have to continue burning petroleum because the world is already set up for fossil fuel-based energy.  The world is too complicated, and people developing wind or solar power are "not capable of planning the society they hoped to create."  Oh, really?

There are other arguments that fit this mold.  Don’t drive automobiles, ‘get a horse’.  Or, if god wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings.  History is replete with nay-sayers who say “it’s just too complicated”.

You have to dive in to learn to swim.  The only method we have, ultimately, is trial and error.  Sure, mistakes will be made.  But you don’t reject a model or system just because “it’s too complicated”.  Each mistake is a learning experience.  To declare from the start that it can’t be done because it is too complicated, is to accept defeat before you begin.
what has been better for the poor, socialism or capitalism. Socialism hasn't removed anyone from poverty

Socialism is not a political theory.  It is an economic theory, or an organizing principle for large institutions.  As an economic theory, socialism has worked pretty well.  

The British military has served pretty well, as has the United States military. It's blatant socialism.  All militaries are capitalized by the social entities they serve.  They exist for the people, by the people and are generally of the people.  How about the RAF during the Battle of Britain?  Failure?  Waste of money?  Slackers?  I wouldn't think so.

And the US Navy is what protects you, and me.  They are huge, floating airports that can go anywhere in the world, and can be there for you and me.  I think socialism serves us well.

Socialist institutions can be mismanaged, as can capitalist institutions.  In that case, they fail.  But that’s not the fault of the organizing principle.

If Venezuela, say, wants use socialism as an organizing principle, and thereafter they mismanage it woefully, well the result is going to be the same as the mismanaged, private-capital oriented institution.  Garbage-in, garbage-out...ya know?  As they say, it's not the computers fault…misuse it, and it fails.  It's more about the quality of the participants, how they take care of it, and/or the content/in-put, that determines the outcome.

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Post by 'Wolfie on Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:31 am

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

So, capitalism is better because society is already set up with “a process to help people figure stuff out”?  The world is presently capitalistic, so of course it’s set up for capitalism.  The world is too complicated?  Price and market signals?  I'm sure if the world were already set up along the socialist model, we would be arguing that capitalism is ill-fit for such a complicated socialist world.  This is simply the “invisible hand” of Adam Smith, writ backwards: leave it be…man isn’t smart enough to engineer it.

That's really like the argument that we shouldn’t look for new sources of energy.  We have to continue burning petroleum because the world is already set up for fossil fuel-based energy.  The world is too complicated, and people developing wind or solar power are "not capable of planning the society they hoped to create."  Oh, really?

There are other arguments that fit this mold.  Don’t drive automobiles, ‘get a horse’.  Or, if god wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings.  History is replete with nay-sayers who say “it’s just too complicated”.

You have to dive in to learn to swim.  The only method we have, ultimately, is trial and error.  Sure, mistakes will be made.  But you don’t reject a model or system just because “it’s too complicated”.  Each mistake is a learning experience.  To declare from the start that it can’t be done because it is too complicated, is to accept defeat before you begin.
what has been better for the poor, socialism or capitalism. Socialism hasn't removed anyone from poverty
Rolling Eyes

As always,  you're still full of shit, Deano...

Deliberately misrepresenting autocratic communist/militarist dictatorships (Venezuela, North Korea, USSR, Mao's China) as "socialist", while ignoring those western countries who have had successful economies under genuinely "socialist-leaning" governments (e.g. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, France, Germany, Sweden, Norway..).

Britain's NHS was originally set up as a "socialist" mechanism --  until consecutive Tory guvm'nts started dismantling and complicating things under the guise of faux "austerity" measures, along with their increasing cutbacks in education, policing and fire brigades.

As you continue to show us all on here, 'DYKbrain, you are totally ignorant in anything remotely political or economics related..

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Post by nicko on Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:40 am

Pot Kettle Black with you ,your ignorant about what goes on in the real World. Where do you get these crazy ideas from ? Do you still read the Beano, [or the Dandy] ? Read your last paragraph , that's YOU to a "T", !
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