Religion is it a choice ?

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

So you chose to have it fade?  Lucky you.

You woke up one morning and decided that you did not want to believe what you believed so just turned it off.

No what I did was I stopped trying to seek answers to something I knew I would never find the answer to, life, I then was set free, I then knew my life was my own and I could make out of it what I wanted to

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I am happy that you have faith though it seems you are in conflict as to why, thus it is not wrong of either to express my views on the matter or of people that do follow belief. So it is not personal, more trying to also understand you, as to why you do, and I see no wrong in that!

Oh yes there is conflict - tell me would I be conflicted if I could just choose?

I do not have a problem trying to explain I have a problem when people tell me it is choice - I have the same problem as does the gay person when people tell them they choose to be gay.  Tell a gay its a lifestyle choice and it will not go down well - tell me its a belief choice and you get the same reaction.

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

My point is did you decide to change the feeling or did it change without you doing anything?  I know its sounds silly but you get people who start out fancying one gender and then as they get older start fancying the other - its a spectrum.

I have tried to change what I feel - it has not worked.

The feeling that you have is an illusion, you have a desire, a desire to want your feelings to be right, this drives your feelings further, because you want to and do except the explanation of why there must be a reason why you are here or a meaning to you existing. That is what is driving this feeling, not faith, that only explains why the faith part is actually stopping you from finding the answers, because it will always cloud your view points from and stop you losing a feeling that not only makes you feel right but makes sense to you, as it fits the answers to questions neither of us know. Thus your feeling is an illusions, of which you  are not unaware are feeding, because it fits what you do not understand  

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

No what I did was I stopped trying to seek answers to something I knew I would never find the answer to, life, I then was set free, I then knew my life was my own and I could make out of it what I wanted to

But I dont spend time trying to find answers.  I do know my life is my own and I do not believe in predestination or anything like that.  It is not like that at all.  I cant really explain it but it is more an awareness than anything else.

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


The feeling that you have is an illusion, you have a desire, a desire to want your feelings to be right, this drives your feelings further, because you want to and do except the explanation of why there must be a reason why you are here or a meaning to you existing. That is what is driving this feeling, not faith, that only explains why the faith part is actually stopping you from finding the answers, because it will always cloud your view points from and stop you losing a feeling that not only makes you feel right but makes sense to you, as it fits the answers to questions neither of us know. Thus your feeling is an illusions, of which you  are not unaware are feeding, because it fits what you do not understand  

Honestly what you are describing is totally alien to me.  It may have been your experience but it is not mine.

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Oh yes there is conflict - tell me would I be conflicted if I could just choose?

I do not have a problem trying to explain I have a problem when people tell me it is choice - I have the same problem as does the gay person when people tell them they choose to be gay.  Tell a gay its a lifestyle choice and it will not go down well - tell me its a belief choice and you get the same reaction.

But you can choose, you choose not to, because what makes your view point fit is faith, so you do not question the faith part,but more why people question you having faith, it is a defense mechanism, because you already have a view you do not wish to challenge in your heart, you want the faith to be real, so you do not question this, what you questions is everybody else for why they do, as it helps stop you from questioning yourself.
Nobody is saying you have a problem either here, because only you yourself would know deep down if you did, everything is subjective here, but I have an advantage from feeling once as you did

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


But you can choose, you choose not to, because what makes your view point fit is faith, so you do not question the faith part,but more why people question you having faith, it is a defense mechanism, because you already have a view you do not wish to challenge in your heart, you want the faith to be real, so you do not question this, what you questions is everybody else for why they do, as it helps stop you from questioning yourself.
Nobody is saying you have a problem either here, because only you yourself would know deep down if you did, everything is subjective here, but I have an advantage from feeling once as you did

Do you not think I spent years questioning myself before I was daft enough to be honest in public?  

This is something that causes me distress and dilemma.  Do I spout the atheist science logic lines and act like I am the same as everyone else or do I be honest about what is inside of me?  

You say you once felt as I do but nothing you are saying matches my experience.

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Oh yes there is conflict - tell me would I be conflicted if I could just choose?

I do not have a problem trying to explain I have a problem when people tell me it is choice - I have the same problem as does the gay person when people tell them they choose to be gay.  Tell a gay its a lifestyle choice and it will not go down well - tell me its a belief choice and you get the same reaction.

But you can choose, you choose not to, because what makes your view point fit is faith, so you do not question the faith part,but more why people question you having faith, it is a defense mechanism, because you already have a view you do not wish to challenge in your heart, you want the faith to be real, so you do not question this, what you questions is everybody else for why they do, as it helps stop you from questioning yourself.
Nobody is saying you have a problem either here, because only you yourself would know deep down if you did, everything is subjective here, but I have an advantage from feeling once as you did

Do you not think I spent years questioning myself before I was daft enough to be honest in public?  

This is something that causes me distress and dilemma.  Do I spout the atheist science logic lines and act like I am the same as everyone else or do I be honest about what is inside of me?  

You say you once felt as I do but nothing you are saying matches my experience.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Do you not think I spent years questioning myself before I was daft enough to be honest in public?  

This is something that causes me distress and dilemma.  Do I spout the atheist science logic lines and act like I am the same as everyone else or do I be honest about what is inside of me?  

You say you once felt as I do but nothing you are saying matches my experience.

Do you feel like what you're experiencing contradicts science or is simply beyond logical analysis, or at least the ways we have of logically analyzing things at present?

Very interesting discussion, I have to add.

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

But I dont spend time trying to find answers.  I do know my life is my own and I do not believe in predestination or anything like that.  It is not like that at all.  I cant really explain it but it is more an awareness than anything else.

You admitted as much earlier Sphinx that you do, faith fits what you need and answers questions for you, what you are afraid of doing is questioning whether that faith has value in the first place.
Personally, I hope you never do, as having is no bad thing, as it brings a sense of purpose to many, and would never take that away from them

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Do you not think I spent years questioning myself before I was daft enough to be honest in public?  

This is something that causes me distress and dilemma.  Do I spout the atheist science logic lines and act like I am the same as everyone else or do I be honest about what is inside of me?  

You say you once felt as I do but nothing you are saying matches my experience.

Sorry you are taking this the wrong way, it is not meant to be personal about you as a person, but debating what I myself understand and also questioning and asking you.
I know I felt the same as you, I once reacted as you do now!

Ben_Reilly wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Do you not think I spent years questioning myself before I was daft enough to be honest in public?  

This is something that causes me distress and dilemma.  Do I spout the atheist science logic lines and act like I am the same as everyone else or do I be honest about what is inside of me?  

You say you once felt as I do but nothing you are saying matches my experience.

Do you feel like what you're experiencing contradicts science or is simply beyond logical analysis, or at least the ways we have of logically analyzing things at present?

Very interesting discussion, I have to add.

PhilDidge wrote:Will expand more on your points tomorrow, but if you believe you have no choice, then you have no free will Sphinx, that means all your views and beliefs are being directed and that the life you are leading is  not of your own making. If that is what faith or life is then it is not a very fair deal for you or anyone.


That is why faith is a choice as you are able to make decisions yourself, if not then you have no free will.


Thanks, as this is very interesting, catch you tomorrow

sphinx wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Do you feel like what you're experiencing contradicts science or is simply beyond logical analysis, or at least the ways we have of logically analyzing things at present?

Very interesting discussion, I have to add.

No it does not contradict science - it is almost like seeing science the way we now see religious fables but without having anything to go in the position that we now hold science in.  Or the way some autistics do high maths calculations - they know the answer, they know they are right but could not tell you within a million years how they got the answer - only with the added confusion of not knowing what the question is

Warren Moon wrote:I think the question should be....do you believe in God, science or both.

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:Will expand more on your points tomorrow, but if you believe you have no choice, then you have no free will Sphinx, that means all your views and beliefs are being directed and that the life you are leading is  not of your own making. If that is what faith or life is then it is not a very fair deal for you or anyone.


That is why faith is a choice as you are able to make decisions yourself, if not then you have no free will.


Thanks, as this is very interesting, catch you tomorrow

Tomorrow sounds good but will answer this quick.

Do you think that a person not being able to choose their sexuality means they do not have free will?  

Or my OH is colour blind - he can describe how the world looks to him and I can imagine it but I cannot  physically see it.

I can choose to do or not do anything - and may well choose to both do and not do where I have  repeated experience.  I mean I am at the self checkout with a load of mushrooms - I could tell the computer they were onions and pay less for them.  I choose not to - not because I think I will punished in the after life or god will disapprove but because if I got caught I would be punished in this life.  I do not think it would make a blind bit of difference to the universe if I did or did not, and I do think I have been predestined not to shop lift.  It comes down to the fact that the risks involved scare me - yet I will happily do other risky things that scare other people.

Anyway I am seriously late for bed - I hate this time of year as my sleep pattern gets screwed up.

Night peoples see you tomorrow

veya_victaous wrote:

sphinx wrote:

No it does not contradict science - it is almost like seeing science the way we now see religious fables but without having anything to go in the position that we now hold science in.  Or the way some autistics do high maths calculations - they know the answer, they know they are right but could not tell you within a million years how they got the answer - only with the added confusion of not knowing what the question is

While that is true of younger kids, once educated enough, some can and will tell you exactly which formulas and theories they are using. they are also very good a proving why these theories work in the first place.
With enough Mathematics you can answer anything, but it is also true that once you start getting in to 'irrational numbers' etc that are used in Quantum Physics the Maths becomes too complex for most people to follow.

At which point it does become faith like.

Faith is Incompatible with Science. Science Requires Proof, Faith is by definition 'Belief without Proof'. BUT Humans do not have to be consistent so may have elements of both in practice.


May the truth be written in 0's and 1's  ::alahoo:: ::alahoo:: ::alahoo:: ::alahoo:: ::alahoo:: ::alahoo::

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Warren Moon wrote:I think the question should be....do you believe in God, science or both.

Ah, but "believing" in science is nothing like "believing" in God. Science offers anyone of reasonable intelligence the opportunity to decide for him or herself whether its conclusions are valid. For example, I could tell you that things fall to earth because our planet is gigantic and large bodies exert an attractive force on smaller ones, and with the proper equipment and know-how you could test that conclusion and decide for yourself if you accepted it. The fact that it's essentially universally accepted is because it has been tested so many times.

All ideas of God, besides ones that are practically ineffable feelings like what Sphinx is describing, are not testable through such means, and all such knowledge tends to come through authority figures, who got it from other authority figures, and so on.

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Tomorrow sounds good but will answer this quick.

Do you think that a person not being able to choose their sexuality means they do not have free will?  

Or my OH is colour blind - he can describe how the world looks to him and I can imagine it but I cannot  physically see it.

I can choose to do or not do anything - and may well choose to both do and not do where I have  repeated experience.  I mean I am at the self checkout with a load of mushrooms - I could tell the computer they were onions and pay less for them.  I choose not to - not because I think I will punished in the after life or god will disapprove but because if I got caught I would be punished in this life.  I do not think it would make a blind bit of difference to the universe if I did or did not, and I do think I have been predestined not to shop lift.  It comes down to the fact that the risks involved scare me - yet I will happily do other risky things that scare other people.

Anyway I am seriously late for bed - I hate this time of year as my sleep pattern gets screwed up.

Night peoples see you tomorrow

Sorry but we are talking about two very different things here, to even class them the same is to me ridiculous. There are many things people are born with, just as I was born heterosexual, I do not fancy men. Your conclusions is based on no sound science to say you are born with a feeling that you cannot decide on, as your feeling is a belief. Now to prove this was the case you would starve people from birth without any knowledge of a deity to see if they actually then came to this feeling you have, in fact we would see that of these people you claim have this, they would not be able to ever change this feeling. Yet like I say I have had and others a very strong feeling of faith, only to lose this feeling when as I see how my eyes were opened. Many people claim their eyes are opened with faith, I actually think it is the other way round, as to me not having a choice on a feeling is to lack free will, being your whole life is predisposed, even though what action you take thinking they are your own are not, all have been premeditated. It is actually one the the fundamentally biggest reason I do not have faith, because something that is as people believe infallible and immortal already is meant to know how you live your life, that is not choice but again premeditated. It also makes no logic to be designed this way, but that is getting deeper into the realms of the unknown. Don't forget you have to look at this as if we are too believe you are correct and a deity does exist, hence why I say you would have no free will if faith is not a choice .  

Believing religious dogma is free will. As how can I be held morally responsible for a belief when disbelief is treated as a sin if it is not free will? How can it be possible for some to defend the idea of me an atheist going to hell unless they believe I can be held morally accountable for my atheism? 

I actually disagree with some of the views in regards to science and religion being incompatible, because , within religion science has also advanced and some of the greatest scientists have been religious, what is important only as a scientists is that your faith does not conflict with your work.

There is also a problem with faith not being a choice, in that why would you create some one way and others another way, that is not the work of perfection or design and we see this throughout life where things go wrong in humans with terrible conditions, which shows that this is not a design to me, Humans certainly have inbuilt morality and the capacity to believe in faith, of which again I think this stems more again due to fascination of wanting to know life after death. This is not me having a go at anything or anyone how we are born, but the fact of the matter that would show flaws with design.

So to me faith is nothing more than a choice and yet see of those who are of faith see it as not a choice and to me they are not allowing themselves a choice, in my view. What is important is what do you question about faith and what you think is faith?

SEXY MAMA wrote:Of course religion is a choice!

It's up to the individual if she /he wants to believe in a Deity.

You cannot force it on anyone.

@Ben as far as I know murderers don't go to heaven

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Sorry but we are talking about two very different things here, to even class them the same is to me ridiculous. There are many things people are born with, just as I was born heterosexual, I do not fancy men. Your conclusions is based on no sound science to say you are born with a feeling that you cannot decide on, as your feeling is a belief. Now to prove this was the case you would starve people from birth without any knowledge of a deity to see if they actually then came to this feeling you have, in fact we would see that of these people you claim have this, they would not be able to ever change this feeling. Yet like I say I have had and others a very strong feeling of faith, only to lose this feeling when as I see how my eyes were opened. Many people claim their eyes are opened with faith, I actually think it is the other way round, as to me not having a choice on a feeling is to lack free will, being your whole life is predisposed, even though what action you take thinking they are your own are not, all have been premeditated. It is actually one the the fundamentally biggest reason I do not have faith, because something that is as people believe infallible and immortal already is meant to know how you live your life, that is not choice but again premeditated. It also makes no logic to be designed this way, but that is getting deeper into the realms of the unknown. Don't forget you have to look at this as if we are too believe you are correct and a deity does exist, hence why I say you would have no free will if faith is not a choice .  

Believing religious dogma is free will. As how can I be held morally responsible for a belief when disbelief is treated as a sin if it is not free will? How can it be possible for some to defend the idea of me an atheist going to hell unless they believe I can be held morally accountable for my atheism? 

I actually disagree with some of the views in regards to science and religion being incompatible, because , within religion science has also advanced and some of the greatest scientists have been religious, what is important only as a scientists is that your faith does not conflict with your work.

There is also a problem with faith not being a choice, in that why would you create some one way and others another way, that is not the work of perfection or design and we see this throughout life where things go wrong in humans with terrible conditions, which shows that this is not a design to me, Humans certainly have inbuilt morality and the capacity to believe in faith, of which again I think this stems more again due to fascination of wanting to know life after death. This is not me having a go at anything or anyone how we are born, but the fact of the matter that would show flaws with design.

So to me faith is nothing more than a choice and yet see of those who are of faith see it as not a choice and to me they are not allowing themselves a choice, in my view. What is important is what do you question about faith and what you think is faith?

Again you are confusing my meanings - I am not religious,  I do not believe any religious dogma, I certainly do not believe in an old man with a beard or the more poplar Morgan Freeman representation.  I can quite happily sit down and point out all the ways various religious texts are wrong both scientifically and socially and morally - as well as the areas they get it right.

You keep talking about how you lost your feeling of faith - well how did you do it?  That would be rather more useful to me than being told its my choice. What steps did you take?  What actions were necessary.  How can I do the same thing?  If something is a choice then there must be something people can be shown to do.

Also you keep going on about free will - free will is about actions.  To kill or not to kill.  I am talking about a feeling.  Yes many people whose faith is tied up in whatever religion they were fed  believe they must act a certain way and cannot act another - that what they can do is limited by "god" and they indeed do not have free will.  That is not the case with me - as I follow no religion there are no rules restricting me except those I place on myself - and that includes whether or not I obey societies rules.

sphinx wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Of course religion is a choice!

It's up to the individual if she /he wants to believe in a Deity.

You cannot force it on anyone.

@Ben as far as I know murderers don't go to heaven

If we can all accept for a minute that "Deity" doe not necessarily equal a supernatural humanoid with an in depth interest in a small lump of rock in a galaxy that itself is insignificant in the universe which may be part of a multiverse.

How do I stop believing?

BigAndy9 wrote:I think it is for some - white Westerners for instance.

For children growing up in muslim families, maybe not so much.

Even worse if you are a girl.  If you're male, at 16+ you have more freedom - you can get drunk, take drugs and go to the casino to lose the tax money which has been squirrelled away.  Not so if you're a girl though.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:I think it is for some - white Westerners for instance.

For children growing up in muslim families, maybe not so much.

Even worse if you are a girl.  If you're male, at 16+ you have more freedom - you can get drunk, take drugs and go to the casino to lose the tax money which has been squirrelled away.  Not so if you're a girl though.

And the award for the most stupid post goes to Andy!

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Again you are confusing my meanings - I am not religious,  I do not believe any religious dogma, I certainly do not believe in an old man with a beard or the more poplar Morgan Freeman representation.  I can quite happily sit down and point out all the ways various religious texts are wrong both scientifically and socially and morally - as well as the areas they get it right.

You keep talking about how you lost your feeling of faith - well how did you do it?  That would be rather more useful to me than being told its my choice. What steps did you take?  What actions were necessary.  How can I do the same thing?  If something is a choice then there must be something people can be shown to do.

Also you keep going on about free will - free will is about actions.  To kill or not to kill.  I am talking about a feeling.  Yes many people whose faith is tied up in whatever religion they were fed  believe they must act a certain way and cannot act another - that what they can do is limited by "god" and they indeed do not have free will.  That is not the case with me - as I follow no religion there are no rules restricting me except those I place on myself - and that includes whether or not I obey societies rules.

There are too many reasons why I came to lose faith which would take days to explain and one being how I find the concept of a deity to be illogical, especially with things I have already mentioned.
Sorry it is also free will to have faith and will help explain why. as i even understand your view point here but with one exception. Belief requires good reasons, and although people may argue or even debate over what are good reasons it is those reasons which cause belief, not choice.


Have you ever doubted your faith, by faith I mean a belief in a deity?

SEXY MAMA wrote:

sphinx wrote:

If we can all accept for a minute that "Deity" doe not necessarily equal a supernatural humanoid with an in depth interest in a small lump of rock in a galaxy that itself is insignificant in the universe which may be part of a multiverse.

How do I stop believing?

I don't know really. Belief is also a strong feeling that it feels 'right' to believe in a certain way. You may have evidence in forms of literature or just a mere gut instinct.

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

There are too many reasons why I came to lose faith which would take days to explain and one being how I find the concept of a deity to be illogical, especially with things I have already mentioned.
Sorry it is also free will to have faith and will help explain why. as i even understand your view point here but with one exception. Belief requires good reasons, and although people may argue or even debate over what are good reasons it is those reasons which cause belief, not choice.


Have you ever doubted your faith, by faith I mean a belief in a deity?

So you have a list of reasons why it happened - that is not what I am asking.  I am asking what you did that I need to do.

Doubted?  No.  Had a  moment when it was gone yes.  Difficult to describe - not all good not all bad.

By the way what do you mean by belief in a deity?

PhilDidge wrote:Anyway I just had a thought Sphinx, as you are not religious the question does not apply to you, as what we have to understand and debate over is whether your view/faith is a choice?
Correct?

PhilDidge wrote:So you still have a belief system Sphinx, which is not based upon sound knowledge, which is faith also, but this faith is based upon things you could have been influenced by indirectly? You believe in a soul, of which there is no proof to the existence of a soul, so whilst it is well debated that faith is not a choice and I understand this concept very well, you have beliefs based upon concepts that do not have any rational backing to, they are classed as irrational beliefs and am not knocking you, that is just the term, as your beliefs are not backed or supported. However what you have is a belief also and a belief requires choice. So I do understand exactly where you are coming from on this, as faith as a concept (it does not have to be religious is not a choice) but what is a choice is belief and beliefs are based upon things that are introduced to us, unless of course you can prove no such influence of souls came onto you?

So whilst I agree to a certain point you have regarding around the meaning of faith, when this introduces beliefs on concepts known, they to me are a choice you have introduced into this faith you have.

sphinx wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:So you still have a belief system Sphinx, which is not based upon sound knowledge, which is faith also, but this faith is based upon things you could have been influenced by indirectly? You believe in a soul, of which there is no proof to the existence of a soul, so whilst it is well debated that faith is not a choice and I understand this concept very well, you have beliefs based upon concepts that do not have any rational backing to, they are classed as irrational beliefs and am not knocking you, that is just the term, as your beliefs are not backed or supported. However what you have is a belief also and a belief requires choice. So I do understand exactly where you are coming from on this, as faith as a concept (it does not have to be religious is not a choice) but what is a choice is belief and beliefs are based upon things that are introduced to us, unless of course you can prove no such influence of souls came onto you?

So whilst I agree to a certain point you have regarding around the meaning of faith, when this introduces beliefs on concepts known, they to me are a choice you have introduced into this faith you have.

Yep see I told you I was not going to be able to explain in words.  

For example "soul" which I put in inverted commas to try and show that I am not using in its usual meaning.  There is not a word for what I mean - and it is not something I "believe" in it is something I "know".
Come on Sphinx that is a tad of a copout, you were clear in your use of the term soul and my contention is it is a belief that was introduced to you whether indirectly or indirectly. You never stated the closest I can describe this would be similar to the concept of a Soul soul

Yes to believe in "soul" as defined by common religions would be a choice - but that is not what I mean.  I could throw in the words "essence" "definition" "core" ,  I could refer to "collective psyche" and the personal part of that - but I would still not be communicating what I mean.
Yes but as stated you described very clearly your belief in a soul

This is why I do keep drawing comparisons with sexuality.  What I have is not "beliefs" it is a feeling and/or a "knowing" - it is not concious thing that has to be thought about - it is the same as breathing or feeling attracted to someone - it just is.  (and by comparison its absence for a moment was just as distinctly just not)
Again i think more than anything you are trying to deny yourself it is a belief to back the view you have that you cannot chose, that really seems even more the case to me, have you have formed this view to explain many variations  


I mean try explaining to someone what hunger feels like, or how you respond to the person down the street you fancy, or the colour pink.
Sphinx I understand very well the concept of faith,l as we all have certain aspects of faith, not the religious kind that is for sure, but I strongly believe you are trying to some how say your beliefs are not influenced, which faiths with beliefs are a choice. So no need to ask me to describe being hungry what is in affect different from each person to the next, a feeling, I get that part and understand again this concept well    

And at the end of this is of course the possibility that I am simply delusional - but that comes back to reality being an illusion which would make everything a delusion - or nothing at all.

PhilDidge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Yep see I told you I was not going to be able to explain in words.  

For example "soul" which I put in inverted commas to try and show that I am not using in its usual meaning.  There is not a word for what I mean - and it is not something I "believe" in it is something I "know".
Come on Sphinx that is a tad of a copout, you were clear in your use of the term soul and my contention is it is a belief that was introduced to you whether indirectly or indirectly. You never stated the closest I can describe this would be similar to the concept of a Soul soul

Yes to believe in "soul" as defined by common religions would be a choice - but that is not what I mean.  I could throw in the words "essence" "definition" "core" ,  I could refer to "collective psyche" and the personal part of that - but I would still not be communicating what I mean.
Yes but as stated you described very clearly your belief in a soul

This is why I do keep drawing comparisons with sexuality.  What I have is not "beliefs" it is a feeling and/or a "knowing" - it is not concious thing that has to be thought about - it is the same as breathing or feeling attracted to someone - it just is.  (and by comparison its absence for a moment was just as distinctly just not)
Again i think more than anything you are trying to deny yourself it is a belief to back the view you have that you cannot chose, that really seems even more the case to me, have you have formed this view to explain many variations  


I mean try explaining to someone what hunger feels like, or how you respond to the person down the street you fancy, or the colour pink.
Sphinx I understand very well the concept of faith,l as we all have certain aspects of faith, not the religious kind that is for sure, but I strongly believe you are trying to some how say your beliefs are not influenced, which faiths with beliefs are a choice. So no need to ask me to describe being hungry what is in affect different from each person to the next, a feeling, I get that part and understand again this concept well    

And at the end of this is of course the possibility that I am simply delusional - but that comes back to reality being an illusion which would make everything a delusion - or nothing at all.

I think there is no way forward with the discussion now really, as to me you clearly stated something to then change it to now something similar to a soul, essence what ever you wish to describe are concepts known, which have no rational belief, which states to me clearly choice.
Hey ho, I doubt you will see otherwise and I am not convinced with your explanations to it not being a choice. This is not a knock on you either, as I doubt being as this is you debating feelings about yourself, you will sway them in your favour each time anyway.
Anyway it was interesting and thank you for sharing, I agree some of your views are right, but I still maintain what you have is also beliefs which would be a choice

PhilDidge wrote:Again have you doubted this faith/belief/knowing?

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:Again have you doubted this faith/belief/knowing?

what has doubting faith etc got to do with anything?

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

what has doubting faith etc got to do with anything?

Plenty

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Plenty

In what way?

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

In what way?

We are talking in regards to choice, think about it if you doubted this faith/belief/knowing?